Toxic Cabin Air.

Post Reply
Message
Author
User avatar
barkingmad
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 5497
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 9:13 pm
Location: Another Planet
Gender:
Age: 75

Toxic Cabin Air.

#1 Post by barkingmad » Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:19 am

A problem which has been “aired” for many years, formerly most reports emanating from the B757 and Bae146 fleets but looks like this Airborne Systems Ebola is spreading?

Lots of us oldies have experienced the smelly socks whiff frequently but thick acrid smoke dutifully recorded by pax mobile phone cameras will make this one difficult to brush over.

The former Chief Medical Officer of BA, a former doctor pilot and AvMed specialist in the RAF will not be able to calmly state this was pilots hyperventilating.

I hope Tristan Lorraine is still around to observe the wriggling of the industry BigCorp.

BA passengers: Cabin fumes gave us breathing problems https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50074402

It bodes ill for the entire industry once the affected passengers’ lawyers get hold of the compensation cases.

User avatar
Ex-Ascot
Test Pilot
Test Pilot
Posts: 13096
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2015 7:16 am
Location: Botswana but sometimes Greece
Gender:
Age: 68

Re: Toxic Cabin Air.

#2 Post by Ex-Ascot » Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:28 am

Barking:
The former Chief Medical Officer of BA, a former doctor pilot and AvMed specialist in the RAF will not be able to calmly state this was pilots hyperventilating.
Are you saying that this is you Sir?
'Yes, Madam, I am drunk, but in the morning I shall be sober and you will still be ugly.' Sir Winston Churchill.

Pontius Navigator
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 14669
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:17 am
Location: Gravity be the clue
Gender:
Age: 80

Re: Toxic Cabin Air.

#3 Post by Pontius Navigator » Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:51 am

We had a fume event ? on a cruise ship. They gave us crap of refuelling, wind direction and ventilators but that was nonsense as refuelling systems are sealed circuits.

The point though is there was no visible contaminant, just smell and touch. Clothes stank, eyes weeped and we got headaches.

Smoke in that video is inescapable proof of something.

User avatar
barkingmad
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 5497
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 9:13 pm
Location: Another Planet
Gender:
Age: 75

Re: Toxic Cabin Air.

#4 Post by barkingmad » Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:02 am

“Are you saying that this is you, sir?”.

Most definitely not but over in TOP some years ago he was quoted as explaining it away as the crews’ heavy breathing.

And for some reason he used to wear a bow tie, as in the manner of an obstetrician though he never peered up my orifice.

I could try and find the quote but life’s too short.

I’ve had the sweaty sock sniff frequently in the Bae146 and been in the cloud of blue smoke inside the 146 cabin after APU startup and AC initiation in the early days when DanAir was one of the first customers for that type.

So far, touch wood (not the early morning variety!) I appear physically unscathed and have never since then warmed a psychiatrist’s couch but my posting name sez it all!

User avatar
Ex-Ascot
Test Pilot
Test Pilot
Posts: 13096
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2015 7:16 am
Location: Botswana but sometimes Greece
Gender:
Age: 68

Re: Toxic Cabin Air.

#5 Post by Ex-Ascot » Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:46 am

Thanks Barking. I know exactly who he is. One of my instructors at Sleaford Tech. Saw him at the Royal Air Force club a couple of years ago. His promotion to Sqn Ldr was held back because he put a broom handle through in invaluable painting in College Hall mess jousting on a bicycle. He is no idiot that is for sure so do not understand his statement. I in fact put him on to TOP. Can't remember why now.

He saved our Sqn Cdrs life. Nasty car accident close to Cranwell. He rushed to the scene, went with him to hospital and assisted in the operation. Boss came around to find him by the bedside and said 'what the f...ck are you doing here?' He was a complete b@stard. Met him some years later and after the accident he was a very different person.

I had to stop airline flying because of severe fatigue. I put it down to triple night flights. Nursie has the theory that it was the bad air quality. She could very well be right.
'Yes, Madam, I am drunk, but in the morning I shall be sober and you will still be ugly.' Sir Winston Churchill.

fin
Capt
Capt
Posts: 947
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2015 9:33 pm
Location: Empire State/Magnolia State
Gender:

Re: Toxic Cabin Air.

#6 Post by fin » Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:53 pm

barkingmad wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:02 am
“Are you saying that this is you, sir?”.

Most definitely not but over in TOP some years ago he was quoted as explaining it away as the crews’ heavy breathing.

And for some reason he used to wear a bow tie, as in the manner of an obstetrician though he never peered up my orifice.

I could try and find the quote but life’s too short.

I’ve had the sweaty sock sniff frequently in the Bae146 and been in the cloud of blue smoke inside the 146 cabin after APU startup and AC initiation in the early days when DanAir was one of the first customers for that type.

So far, touch wood (not the early morning variety!) I appear physically unscathed and have never since then warmed a psychiatrist’s couch but my posting name sez it all!
Whether deliberate or not, this post hints at two different genders. =))
Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment.

User avatar
barkingmad
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 5497
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 9:13 pm
Location: Another Planet
Gender:
Age: 75

Re: Toxic Cabin Air.

#7 Post by barkingmad » Sat Oct 19, 2019 11:15 am

Regrets for this but in TOP under the thread “Toxic Cabin Air” posting #79 refers to the honourable gentleman and his relationship to other parties.

Searching for that reference has worn me out so back to that darkened room. :O3

Slasher

Re: Toxic Cabin Air.

#8 Post by Slasher » Sat Oct 19, 2019 11:31 am

Ex-Ascot wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:46 am
I had to stop airline flying because of severe fatigue. I put it down to triple night flights.
I had to stop airline flying because of severe shits with airline work, and in no small part due to endless night flights to Venus.

I heard the White Rat is doing a trial flight soon JFK direct SYD in a 777 LR. Flight time 20 hours. The average pax farts 5 times an hour. 350 pax x 5 farts x 20 hours - to say nothing of belches and burps - equals 35,000 flatulences. If that isn’t toxic bloody cabin air I dunno what is!

Capetonian

Re: Toxic Cabin Air.

#9 Post by Capetonian » Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:34 pm

This is quite a disturbing article :

An incident in January, when a pilot became unresponsive at the controls of a plane coming in to land at Heathrow, is just the latest in a string of potentially dangerous "fume events" going back decades, reports the BBC's Mike Powell.

The BBC has seen the Air Safety Report (ASR) of that event. BA threatens staff with disciplinary action - or even the sack - if they reveal the contents of such confidential reports, but one of them has risked it, arguing that the truth needs to be known.


User avatar
TheGreenGoblin
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17596
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:02 pm
Location: With the Water People near Trappist-1

Re: Toxic Cabin Air.

#10 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:31 am

I listened to the BBC Radio 4 programme on toxic cabin air last night. Thought provoking and concerning.

I take the liberty of reposting the link for Capetonian...

BBC Radio 4 link to programme on Toxic Cabin AIr

It may not be available for ops-normalisers outside the UK but as "any fule kno" it is possible to use a VPN to get around that silly restriction.

BA Flight 633
Though you remain
Convinced
"To be alive
You must have somewhere
To go
Your destination remains
Elusive."

User avatar
TheGreenGoblin
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17596
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:02 pm
Location: With the Water People near Trappist-1

Re: Toxic Cabin Air.

#11 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:36 am



Though you remain
Convinced
"To be alive
You must have somewhere
To go
Your destination remains
Elusive."

User avatar
TheGreenGoblin
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17596
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:02 pm
Location: With the Water People near Trappist-1

Re: Toxic Cabin Air.

#12 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:43 am

Though you remain
Convinced
"To be alive
You must have somewhere
To go
Your destination remains
Elusive."

User avatar
TheGreenGoblin
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17596
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:02 pm
Location: With the Water People near Trappist-1

Re: Toxic Cabin Air.

#13 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Wed Feb 26, 2020 3:16 am

Good balanced synopsis of the subject here...
Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

Time for the medical profession and sundry researchers to get their heads out of their rectums on this one...

Clearly many in the the industry will do whatever they can to obfuscate or hide these risks for multiple obvious reasons, mostly pecuniary ones...
Though you remain
Convinced
"To be alive
You must have somewhere
To go
Your destination remains
Elusive."

sidevalve
ATPL
ATPL
Posts: 57
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2020 8:41 am
Location: Pays Basque
Gender:

Re: Toxic Cabin Air.

#14 Post by sidevalve » Wed Feb 26, 2020 7:38 am

I had an unpleasant experience on a BA 777 flight from Riyadh to LHR once.

T/O was something like 0200 and once established in the cruise, the hostie came round with some finger sandwiches. After which I thought I'd take a quick leak and then try and sleep. Went into the forward toilet, shut the door and the next thing I knew I was waking up on the floor. I stood up again - and again I found myself waking up on the floor. I rinsed my face with cold water and thought I'd report this to the cabin crew. I walked down the back (rubber legs) holding on to the seat backs as I went and described my experience to the two girls in the galley area.

One of them sat me down and put me on oxygen.. and after about 10-15 mins of this I felt well enough to return to my seat.

In retrospect, I should have made an official report of the incident to the aircraft capt post-flight but I just wanted to get home - my mistake.

At the time I was in my mid-50s, fit with no existing medical conditions and had some 7000 flying hours. In my flying carer I'd never suffered from anything like this at all. I ruled out food poisoning because breathing oxygen for a few minutes had proved beneficial. I had no other symptoms.

Back home, I recounted the experience in a letter to BA but received no reply or even an acknowledgement. I always suspected the cabin air - but why was I affected - and no-one else?

User avatar
OFSO
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 18600
Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2015 6:39 pm
Location: Teddington UK and Roses Catalunia
Gender:
Age: 80

Re: Toxic Cabin Air.

#15 Post by OFSO » Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:15 pm

I have known three people - all fit - my uncle and aunt, and a colleague - who passed out on flights. Cabin staff told them it was 'normal.

User avatar
barkingmad
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 5497
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 9:13 pm
Location: Another Planet
Gender:
Age: 75

Re: Toxic Cabin Air.

#16 Post by barkingmad » Thu Feb 27, 2020 8:39 am

OFSO wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:15 pm
I have known three people - all fit - my uncle and aunt, and a colleague - who passed out on flights. Cabin staff told them it was 'normal.
The cause is well known, the excitement at making it into your dream career becomes sooooh overwhelming that you start to hyperventilate and end up passing out onto the floor! Of course there is the small but embarrassing factor of lower intestinal tract trapped wind but that’s another story.

Anyway, the hyperventilation theory fits with the previously mentioned Avmed expert’s explanation so that’s all right then.

As the aviation industry will say “nothing to see here, move on”! (-|

User avatar
barkingmad
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 5497
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 9:13 pm
Location: Another Planet
Gender:
Age: 75

Re: Toxic Cabin Air.

#17 Post by barkingmad » Fri Feb 28, 2020 9:13 am

On a more serious note;
If I can be so bold as to recommend a dip into TOP on the “Toxic Cabin Air” thread, there’s an awful lot of info from several years back on the topic. This ranges from discussions on subjective sensing of ‘odours’ various to detailed chemical formula breakdowns attempting to educate simpletons such as myself.

The infamous medical orifice previously mentioned in this forum, now an eminent professor, is quoted in post #220 in that place on the topic of aeronautical incidents.

Regrettably and suspiciously some other references quoted no longer are accessible e.g. the GAPAN reference in an earlier posting.

As O-N members may suspect, at the time of writing I am very fortunate to be still vertical and exhibiting a pulse, despite frequent exposure over decades to this fumes problem and in apparently rude physical health, though friends frequently cast nasturtiums on my mental condition!

I did offer on TOP to donate blood and/or a tissue sample as a ‘contaminee’ control specimen who’s still alive and apparently unaffected healthwise but baulked at the invitation to pop across to the Netherlands to get bled and nipped. I would have thought any serious attempt in the UK to gather data and samples relating to these events would be advertising such a trawl but so far none has been alerted to me as a long-term clinically alive specimen.

Observing the UK traffic cops nailing drink and/or drugs suspects it is obvious that any breath/blood sampling must be accomplished ASAP after any event. Reading aviation incident reports it appears that any paramedics attending such airport scenarios are not equipped nor authorised nor instructed to grab samples as soon as possible. Otherwise I expect to see such precautions mentioned in ASR accounts and hopefully toxicology tests results being publicised. And before anyone raises the topic of consent to such testing, aircrew don’t have the option to refuse a pre-flight breath test for alcohol or drugs. So anyone worth their salt working in the industry should happily yield such a specimen after a fumes event or go and flip burgers underneath the Golden Arches.

So is this due to an understandable reluctance on the part of airlines, manufacturers and XAAs to properly prosecute the investigations into such events due to the awesome liability which might be revealed if ever the truth got out? ^#(^

User avatar
TheGreenGoblin
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17596
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:02 pm
Location: With the Water People near Trappist-1

Re: Toxic Cabin Air.

#18 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Fri Feb 28, 2020 10:51 am

So is this due to an understandable reluctance on the part of airlines, manufacturers and XAAs to properly prosecute the investigations into such events due to the awesome liability which might be revealed if ever the truth got out? ^#(^
Not to speak of the cost of re-mediating the existing fleets of aircraft that might be implicated in bleed air issues etc.
Though you remain
Convinced
"To be alive
You must have somewhere
To go
Your destination remains
Elusive."

Post Reply