More Boeing Bad News

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Boac
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Re: More Boeing Bad News

#261 Post by Boac » Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:35 am

Much as some of us may rail against using software to 'fix' other problems, it is now a way of life, is largely successful and I'm afraid Gregory will have to accept it or 'ship out'. Several military aircraft are potentially unstable and require software in order to fly. The challenge is getting the software right. That is a huge and possibly impossible task. Each added programme routine or line of code has the potential to misfire in some unforeseen circumstance or other and totally screw the pooch. Acceptable risk?

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Re: More Boeing Bad News

#262 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:38 am

Boac wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:17 am
Sadly, TGG, you need to go on adding 'independent' FCC computers to be 100% safe if you are going to rely on systems, vis the Airbus accident off Perpignan where the two incorrect ones voted out the correct one.
True Boac. A bit like engines, you can never have enough of them. It is is obviously never possible to be 100% safe but triple redundancy would be better than the one AoA sensor and the ludicrous software setup the Boeing clowns released the aircraft with originally.
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Re: More Boeing Bad News

#263 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:44 am

Boac wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:35 am
Much as some of us may rail against using software to 'fix' other problems, it is now a way of life, is largely successful and I'm afraid Gregory will have to accept it or 'ship out'. Several military aircraft are potentially unstable and require software in order to fly. The challenge is getting the software right. That is a huge and possibly impossible task. Each added programme routine or line of code has the potential to misfire in some unforeseen circumstance or other and totally screw the pooch. Acceptable risk?

I guess the trick with using software and even analogue systems, like stick shakers etc. to solve aeronautical issues is to know when to stop and reevaluate whether one is trying to make a purse out of a sow's ear. Military aircraft are designed to be unstable in many cases and the software is there basically to make the aircraft flyable. This is not the design ethos in the case of passenger carrying airliners in which, in principle, software should be there to augment safety and functionality in an inherently stable aircraft. Design it right and it will fly right, for all the rest there is the software kludge that may work in 95% of cases!
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Re: More Boeing Bad News

#264 Post by ian16th » Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:15 am

Anyone know if the Stratus model of fault tolerant computer hardware has been used, or even considered for use in aircraft systems?

It has been successfully used in Process Control systems.
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Re: More Boeing Bad News

#265 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:24 am

ian16th wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:15 am
Anyone know if the Stratus model of fault tolerant hardware has been used, or even considered in aircraft?
As in the Stratus high end server and networking fault tolerant solutions? I thought they, i.e. Stratus focused on servers and large networks requiring high availability like banks, hospitals, emergency services and the like but I guess many principles therein are valid in modern commercial aircraft as well. I know that Stratus work with Linux systems as well, so their system could be used to ensure the bloody Entertainment System keeps running onboard... :D

I guess the short answer is I don't know. :)

Going off piste I bumped into their system running as the IBM Sytem 88 in tandem (not the computer company) with a network of IBM systems and machines like the System 38.... (don't get me going, memories are made of this)... :)

The configuration above was a process control setup running the IBM MAPICS ERP software.

http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~david/papers/ ... tratus.pdf
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Re: More Boeing Bad News

#266 Post by ian16th » Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:39 am

TheGreenGoblin wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:24 am

As in the Stratus high end server and networking fault tolerant solutions? I thought they, i.e. Stratus focused on servers and large networks requiring high availability like banks, hospitals, emergency services and the like but I guess many principles therein are valid in modern commercial aircraft as well.
That's the one.

It is often bought by finance houses for trading systems, as when the salesman asks the question; 'What does it cost you if your system stops?' The answer is a large positive number!

Its a simple sale from that point.

But it is a h/w system that works and really is 'fault tolerant'.

Their normal OS is the Fault Tolerant eXecutive, FTX, a descendent of MIT's Multics
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Re: More Boeing Bad News

#267 Post by Pontius Navigator » Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:57 am

See the 777X has problems highlighted in today's Telegraph too.

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Re: More Boeing Bad News

#268 Post by Boac » Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:21 pm

Any detail?

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Re: More Boeing Bad News

#269 Post by Pontius Navigator » Sun Jan 19, 2020 4:29 pm

Jun 18 email, 'best part is we are restarting this whole thing with 777x with the same supplier and have signed up to an even more aggressive schedule'

Another 'we put our ourselves in this position by picking the lower cost supplier . . . '

Programme running late as the September set back when a ground test explosive decompression tore the fuselage and blew off a passenger door.

Could just be a Sunday space filler puff. Anyway, its first flight is yet to take place.

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Re: More Boeing Bad News

#270 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:48 pm

Pontius Navigator wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 4:29 pm
Jun 18 email, 'best part is we are restarting this whole thing with 777x with the same supplier and have signed up to an even more aggressive schedule'

Another 'we put our ourselves in this position by picking the lower cost supplier . . . '

Programme running late as the September set back when a ground test explosive decompression tore the fuselage and blew off a passenger door.

Could just be a Sunday space filler puff. Anyway, its first flight is yet to take place.

All the above and I also heard a rumour that there were problems with retrofitting software changes to the flight simulators, possibly because the changes to the aircraft went far further than Boeing would like to have admitted to the FAA in order not to have to have to through re-certification.

https://www.boeing.com/777x/reveal/touc ... ight-deck/
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Re: More Boeing Bad News

#271 Post by Boac » Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:53 pm

USAF whinging about 'problems' with the KC-46 boom camera operating system. Experts say it is just another Boeing image problem............... =))

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Re: More Boeing Bad News

#272 Post by Pontius Navigator » Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:10 pm

One thing is certain, where something was probably satisfactory in future it will be subject to double and triple checking.

I saw the film Rainmaker last night. Very apposite. The legal team was more concerned with profit than doing what was right.

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Re: More Boeing Bad News

#273 Post by PHXPhlyer » Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:01 pm


Capetonian

Re: More Boeing Bad News

#274 Post by Capetonian » Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:22 pm

This is all very reminiscent of 1979 when an Air New Zealand DC10 crashed into the slopes of Mt Erebus killing 257 people.

The High Court judge described the defence as 'an orchestrated litany of lies'.

Those who remember this will recall that the accident was also due to misuse of a computer, in this case a navigation system, which had been reset without the full knowledge of the flight deck crew.

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Re: More Boeing Bad News

#275 Post by PHXPhlyer » Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:52 am

You won't be flying on a 737 Max anytime soon [-X

https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/20/business ... index.html

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Re: More Boeing Bad News

#276 Post by PHXPhlyer » Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:56 am

Brother can you spare a dime...er make it $10 Billion?

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/202 ... continues/

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Re: More Boeing Bad News

#277 Post by PHXPhlyer » Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:01 am


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Re: More Boeing Bad News

#278 Post by Boac » Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:09 pm

Trading in Boeing shares halted after 5% fall.

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Re: More Boeing Bad News

#279 Post by PHXPhlyer » Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:12 pm


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Re: More Boeing Bad News

#280 Post by PHXPhlyer » Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:13 pm

Boeing officially stops making 737 Max airplanes
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/compani ... ar-BBZblcT

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