More Boeing Bad News

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OFSO
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Re: More Boeing Bad News

#301 Post by OFSO » Wed Jan 22, 2020 7:58 am

Boeing now announces MAX will not fly before summer 2020.

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Re: More Boeing Bad News

#302 Post by Slasher » Wed Jan 22, 2020 7:59 am

True Ian, but all Billy B needs to do is to say “forget the MAX - it’s a done deal. Here’s the brand new 737-10!” :D Ta daaaah!

With enough makeup even I’d look good in drag. So would you.

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Re: More Boeing Bad News

#303 Post by Pontius Navigator » Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:05 am

That's the trouble with that snappy 7-7 system, especially if you skip numbers.

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Re: More Boeing Bad News

#304 Post by Boac » Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:51 am

The aviation world is now looking a little more deeply into Boeing's historic failure to think things through. If you disregard the 'howlers' by 'Chris Hamby' in this article about the Turkish 737NG crash in 2009 at AMS, it does ask whether there is a link to the way Boeing have conducted their business, and from his paragraph "The 737 MAX Link" and onwards he is spot on. https://liveandletsfly.boardingarea.com ... 737-crash/

There were significant crew errors in this accident, but it does highlight the Boeing state of mind. I had retired the previous year after many years operating 737s but until the initial findings were published had not realised the (undocumented) trap set with the way the radio altimeter interfaced with the auto-throttle system. I actually don't think any 737 pilot had worked out this scenario. If they had, they kept quiet about it!

If anyone is interested, here is a link to the full Dutch accident report. https://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/en/media/ ... ng_web.pdf. A very good analysis by Professor Dekker on the human factors has also just been published. https://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/en/media/ ... dekker.pdf

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Re: More Boeing Bad News

#305 Post by Pontius Navigator » Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:07 pm

Rwy in Sight wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:59 am
PHXPhlyer wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:17 am
G-CPTN:
Approx 400 undelivered and another 350 or so with airlines grounded.

PP
How many in the order books?
Perhaps not as many today as last week. Airbus to open a new production line for A321.

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Re: More Boeing Bad News

#306 Post by PHXPhlyer » Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:05 pm

Boeing won't wait for FAA approval to start building 737 Max again

https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/22/business ... index.html

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Re: More Boeing Bad News

#307 Post by G-CPTN » Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:21 pm

PHXPhlyer wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:05 pm
Boeing won't wait for FAA approval to start building 737 Max again
Boeing deserves what is coming to them then.

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NMA rethink

#308 Post by Boac » Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:45 pm

Interesting development coming hot on the heels of the 797 first flight tomorrow. https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-boein ... KKBN1ZL2RM

Quite where this leaves the 797 I cannot work out!

Further news from Flight Global: my highlighting

"Calhoun says Boeing now realises the NMA’s design must center around the flight control system and how pilots interact with that system – a topic highlighted by the 737 Max crashes.

"We might have to start with the flight control philosophy before we actually get to the airplane,” Calhoun says of NMA development. Design decisions related to “pilots flying airplanes” are “very important… for the regulator and for us to get our head around”.

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Re: More Boeing Bad News

#309 Post by boing » Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:52 pm

Boeing had perfectly good "pilot interfaces" on the later 7X7 series aircraft. Apart from a few instances of operations requiring too many key pushes the systems worked well and provided a nicely selectable amount of display information for the pilot. It was also very simple to say "I've got it Hal" with all of the information you needed already on the displays. I once hand-flew a 747-400 for about 10 - 15 minutes through an area of intense weather (long story) using the weather radar and occasionally, when required, 45 degrees of bank for the avoidance turns and it really was a very simple exercise because the basic aircraft flew so well and the displays were so good. The autopilot could never have turned hard enough to avoid the area of cells and later systems may even have prevented me from making the turns needed to avoid them while hand-flying.

To face reality, it is not possible to fix the 737 Max problem with new layers of software because the basic design is flawed. Boeing has painted themselves in a design corner but they seem intent on ignoring this fact and spending vasts amounts of money going down a dead-end road.

I bet there are people who remember the meeting at Boeing where a 757 Max was discussed and rejected by the bean-counters as too expensive to develop and sell.

I also remember a true story from someone who attended the original 777 roll-out ceremony, he was in the group when this exchange took place. An engineer was asked why the 777 was built with a yoke rather than a side-stick and the engineer replied that it was to satisfy the senior (read old) airline pilots. Perhaps those "senior" pilots had some experience that the engineer did not possess..


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Re: More Boeing Bad News

#310 Post by Boac » Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:13 pm

It will be interesting, once the dust settles on this farce, as to what EXACTLY this means for the MAX. Someone suggested a while back - I suspect whimsically - re-engining, re-pyloning (I claim copyright on that one) and re-selling them as ''cheapo' NGs (have Boeing got O'Leary's number on speed-dial?) and that is sounding like a more plausible solution as every day of disaster follows every day of.....

Capital costs against running costs - an interesting calculation.

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Re: More Boeing Bad News

#311 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:31 pm

Re-pyloning. Good word and your rights to same will be respected. ;)))

I guess that such a solution to the real problem here is not seen as a commercially viable solution, so Boeing will continue to apply the software kludge lipstick to the proverbial aerodynamic pig.
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Re: More Boeing Bad News

#312 Post by Boac » Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:48 pm

Well, I hear what you post but I cannot see them selling all those Maximums.

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Re: More Boeing Bad News

#313 Post by barkingmad » Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:15 pm

The AMS accident would probably not have happened if a basic instrument scan by all 3 on the flight deck had been maintained and if PF had kept a hand on the thrust levers he might have got the tactile clue that all was not normal.

After 9+ years on the NG I can’t lay the blame for that one at the Boeing office door.

Nor did I have much confidence in the auto-trim system, recalling that every time the stab trim actuated as a result of an auto input, I was mentally timing for how long it ran every time just in case. Especially during the 400’ radio alt nose-up cranking prior to an autoland. But the STS actuation during take-off was also a f’ing nuisance and I invariably ended up trimming in the opposite direction via the CC switches.

I liked the NG, particularly the -800, and couldn’t really get over the decision to stretch to the -900 and then beyond.......

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Re: More Boeing Bad News

#314 Post by Boac » Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:22 pm

Agreed, but there was Boeing fault, BM, since the system used a single source - with two available - AND was not documented and therefore again unknown to crews - ring any bells? Personally I feel the 'safety pilot' was more to blame than anyone.

As for 'tactile clues', if you read the report you will see that 'idle' was expected.

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Re: More Boeing Bad News

#315 Post by Rwy in Sight » Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:47 pm

I was told that those in the aircraft were not ahead of the aircraft but they were in IST - well behind it.

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Re: More Boeing Bad News

#316 Post by barkingmad » Sat Jan 25, 2020 8:20 am

Gosh! Will we have to start a “Some Boeing Good News” thread?

Boeing: US regulator FAA 'pleased' with 737 progress https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51244769

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Re: More Boeing Bad News

#317 Post by PHXPhlyer » Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:48 pm

Boeing posts first annual loss in 22 years because of the 737 Max crisis

https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/29/business ... index.html

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Re: More Boeing Bad News

#318 Post by Pontius Navigator » Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:10 pm

Would you buy Boeing shares?

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Re: More Boeing Bad News

#319 Post by Rwy in Sight » Wed Jan 29, 2020 4:17 pm

Pontius Navigator wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:10 pm
Would you buy Boeing shares?
Yes for an amount I can afford. Boeing is one of the companies that the US government would like to have around. Remember what they did with the KC-30/KC67 or whatever the name of the refuelling jet is.

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Re: More Boeing Bad News

#320 Post by Slasher » Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:15 am

Pontius Navigator wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:10 pm
Would you buy Boeing shares?
Yes but only if it hits $280. Got down to $314 in some increased volume yesterday but recovered higher.

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