This is the usual level at which the general public start thinking about avoiding things.
Unless somebody famous, like a Kardashian, says something, then all bets are off
More Boeing Bad News
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Fox3WheresMyBanana
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Re: More Boeing Bad News
The death rate is still below 1 in 10^6.
This is the usual level at which the general public start thinking about avoiding things.
Unless somebody famous, like a Kardashian, says something, then all bets are off
This is the usual level at which the general public start thinking about avoiding things.
Unless somebody famous, like a Kardashian, says something, then all bets are off
Re: More Boeing Bad News
Whilst I agree. how does one know what aircraft is allocated before one turns up for the flight?
What recourse do passengers have on discovering that a MAX is scheduled?
What recourse do passengers have on discovering that a MAX is scheduled?
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Fox3WheresMyBanana
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Re: More Boeing Bad News
Exactly - none.
And even if a MAX isn't scheduled, what happens if the Airbus goes tech and they sub in a MAX?
Lose your holiday/business trip, with zero compensation, or take your chances on an aircraft that, historically, isn't particularly dangerous?
With most airlines, statistically, they should be more worried about the pilots, but the travelling public know even less about them.
Me, I like to share a few words with the crew as they arrive.
I'd like to know if the drivers are arrogant bozos or not.
And at least with good western airlines, you can be sure that the pilots will have read the same accident reports we have, and at least won't be making the same mistakes.
And even if a MAX isn't scheduled, what happens if the Airbus goes tech and they sub in a MAX?
Lose your holiday/business trip, with zero compensation, or take your chances on an aircraft that, historically, isn't particularly dangerous?
With most airlines, statistically, they should be more worried about the pilots, but the travelling public know even less about them.
Me, I like to share a few words with the crew as they arrive.
I'd like to know if the drivers are arrogant bozos or not.
And at least with good western airlines, you can be sure that the pilots will have read the same accident reports we have, and at least won't be making the same mistakes.
Re: More Boeing Bad News
The airlines here are allowing pax to book away from the Maxs.
Their apps show the type a/c at booking and also when checking flight status.
Some pax might be SOL if their airline only flies Maxs to their desired destination however Maxs do not make up the majority of any airline's fleet. They also have 700s and 800s with only Alaska having an all Boeing fleet; most of the rest have a mix of Airbus and RJs as well.
PP
Their apps show the type a/c at booking and also when checking flight status.
Some pax might be SOL if their airline only flies Maxs to their desired destination however Maxs do not make up the majority of any airline's fleet. They also have 700s and 800s with only Alaska having an all Boeing fleet; most of the rest have a mix of Airbus and RJs as well.
PP
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Fox3WheresMyBanana
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Re: More Boeing Bad News
Whilst they may be allowing it, they aren't offering compensation, and as you point out there may not be alternatives.
I will be interested to see if there is in fact significant choice away from the MAXs where options do exist, and whether this makes any material difference - e.g. airlines cancelling MAX orders.
However, I expect with the accident rate still being so low, any changes away will be insignificant at this stage.
Often a key factor in this kind of scenario is whether there are another couple of accidents whilst the first one is still in the news.
Statistically, this might be just random variation, but the average punter does not understand statistics.
I will be interested to see if there is in fact significant choice away from the MAXs where options do exist, and whether this makes any material difference - e.g. airlines cancelling MAX orders.
However, I expect with the accident rate still being so low, any changes away will be insignificant at this stage.
Often a key factor in this kind of scenario is whether there are another couple of accidents whilst the first one is still in the news.
Statistically, this might be just random variation, but the average punter does not understand statistics.
Re: More Boeing Bad News
Michael O'Leary has already commented that RyanAir would take MAXs (don't recall if it was any MAXs or just MAX 10s) that any other airlines decide to pass on, assuming that it ever gets certified.
PP
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Fox3WheresMyBanana
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Re: More Boeing Bad News
Thank you.
Best I can tell, Ryanair has the least-picky customers in the western hemisphere.
Revised condition: e.g. airlines cancelling MAX orders..that Boeing can't immediately transfer elsewhere.
It's all about the money, especially to the accountants in charge at Boeing.
They don't care who buys their sh!t, as long as somebody does, at full price.
Best I can tell, Ryanair has the least-picky customers in the western hemisphere.
Revised condition: e.g. airlines cancelling MAX orders..that Boeing can't immediately transfer elsewhere.
It's all about the money, especially to the accountants in charge at Boeing.
They don't care who buys their sh!t, as long as somebody does, at full price.
Re: More Boeing Bad News
O'Leary qualified his statement saying "at the right price".Fox3WheresMyBanana wrote: ↑Sat Feb 03, 2024 12:55 am
They don't care who buys their sh!t, as long as somebody does, at full price.
PP
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Fox3WheresMyBanana
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Re: More Boeing Bad News
..and there we have it.
Much cheapness only for the Irish spiv - cheaper than Tesco!
Much cheapness only for the Irish spiv - cheaper than Tesco!
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Fox3WheresMyBanana
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Re: More Boeing Bad News
Boeing Co (BA.N), opens new tab said on Sunday it will have to do more work on about 50 undelivered 737 MAX airplanes, potentially delaying some near-term deliveries, after its supplier Spirit AeroSystems (SPR.N), opens new tab discovered two mis-drilled holes on some fuselages.So, one asks the question again about screwed-up systems..what else have they forgotten?
And the simple answer is...we'll find out!
*my emphasisThe U.S. regulator has ordered Boeing to cap 737 production at the current rate of 38 jets a month for an undefined period while it addresses quality lapses, deferring the increases in production needed to meet rising demand for new jets.
So far, Boeing has said it will keep buying parts from suppliers at previously planned higher rates in order to cushion the impact they face from the freeze in production growth.
The 737 MAX checks focus on potentially sloppy positioning of two holes on a window frame assembly supplied by Spirit, a condition known as "short edge margin," the industry sources said.
Edge margins, or the gap between a fastener and the edge of a metal sheet, have to meet strict specifications designed to minimise the risk of metal fatigue over the long term.
In the past, the FAA has occasionally ordered inspections for cracks resulting from fastener holes being mis-drilled.
As of Friday, the "non-conformance" or quality defect had been found in 22 fuselages out of 47 inspected up to that point, spread between Boeing and Spirit, and may exist in some 737s in service*, the sources said.
https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 024-02-05/
I'm not sure how a production limit, in itself, helps.
I would guess the intention is that they use the people being hired to up the production rate to fix the current production problems.
But there's no guarantee Boeing will allocate personnel that way, or even hire anyone extra.
And if the people they are hiring are slack idiots, more slack idiots is not a solution.
Re: More Boeing Bad News
FAA increases oversight of Boeing 737 Max 9 jets after Alaska Airlines near-disaster
A door panel on an Alaska Airlines jet carrying 177 people blew out midair on its way from Oregon to California on Jan. 5.
https://www.nbcnews.com/business/busine ... rcna137284
The Federal Aviation Administration announced Monday that it will start taking a closer look at Boeing 737 Max 9 jets.
"The FAA is increasing its oversight of Boeing’s production lines and suppliers, and limiting certain approvals until we are satisfied that the quality control issues uncovered during this process are resolved," the administration said.
This comes in the wake of a near-disaster that saw a door panel on an Alaska Airlines jet carrying 177 people blow out midair on Jan. 5. The airlines CEO, Ben Minicucci, said new, in-house inspections of the carrier’s Boeing 737 Max 9 planes following the incident revealed that “many” of the aircraft were found to have loose bolts.
The FAA temporarily grounded about 171 out of 218 Boeing 737 Max 9 airplanes used by U.S. airlines after the incident and announced an investigation into Boeing.
Since then, Alaska Airlines and United Airlines both confirmed plans to return their fleet of Boeing 737 Max 9 planes to service.
The FAA has already inspected existing Alaska and United Airlines jets and returned 93.75% — or 135 out of 144 of them — to service, according to FAA Deputy Associate Administrator for Aviation Safety Jodi Baker.
However, the administration is only three weeks into its increased oversight of the aircraft and "it's too early to draw any conclusions," Baker said at the news briefing. The FAA "will address concerns as they come up," she added.
“This is not new work, understanding how aircraft are manufactured, and we have the expertise to do that,” Baker said.
The FAA is focusing on hiring more employees to help with the oversight at the Boeing Renton Factory, and streamline the data collection process.
Baker said the administration wants "to step up more interaction and more direct observation of work that’s being accomplished" at Boeing.
The administration expects the oversight process to take six weeks.
PP
A door panel on an Alaska Airlines jet carrying 177 people blew out midair on its way from Oregon to California on Jan. 5.
https://www.nbcnews.com/business/busine ... rcna137284
The Federal Aviation Administration announced Monday that it will start taking a closer look at Boeing 737 Max 9 jets.
"The FAA is increasing its oversight of Boeing’s production lines and suppliers, and limiting certain approvals until we are satisfied that the quality control issues uncovered during this process are resolved," the administration said.
This comes in the wake of a near-disaster that saw a door panel on an Alaska Airlines jet carrying 177 people blow out midair on Jan. 5. The airlines CEO, Ben Minicucci, said new, in-house inspections of the carrier’s Boeing 737 Max 9 planes following the incident revealed that “many” of the aircraft were found to have loose bolts.
The FAA temporarily grounded about 171 out of 218 Boeing 737 Max 9 airplanes used by U.S. airlines after the incident and announced an investigation into Boeing.
Since then, Alaska Airlines and United Airlines both confirmed plans to return their fleet of Boeing 737 Max 9 planes to service.
The FAA has already inspected existing Alaska and United Airlines jets and returned 93.75% — or 135 out of 144 of them — to service, according to FAA Deputy Associate Administrator for Aviation Safety Jodi Baker.
However, the administration is only three weeks into its increased oversight of the aircraft and "it's too early to draw any conclusions," Baker said at the news briefing. The FAA "will address concerns as they come up," she added.
“This is not new work, understanding how aircraft are manufactured, and we have the expertise to do that,” Baker said.
The FAA is focusing on hiring more employees to help with the oversight at the Boeing Renton Factory, and streamline the data collection process.
Baker said the administration wants "to step up more interaction and more direct observation of work that’s being accomplished" at Boeing.
The administration expects the oversight process to take six weeks.
PP
Re: More Boeing Bad News
It's Official!
The US National Transportation Safety Board has released initial findings from its probe into the incident on an Alaska Airlines plane in January.
It says four key bolts that were meant to lock the unused door to the fuselage appeared to be missing.
Well, I'll be.....................
The US National Transportation Safety Board has released initial findings from its probe into the incident on an Alaska Airlines plane in January.
It says four key bolts that were meant to lock the unused door to the fuselage appeared to be missing.
Well, I'll be.....................
Re: More Boeing Bad News
Faulty door panel on Alaska Airlines flight had no bolts installed, NTSB says in preliminary report
The flight left Portland, Oregon, on Jan. 5 bound for Ontario International Airport in San Bernardino County, California, when the door plug blew off.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/fa ... rcna136416
The door panel on an Alaska Airlines Boeing 737 that fell off midair had no bolts installed on the door plug, according to preliminary findings released Tuesday by the National Transportation Safety Board.
A picture of the plane in a factory in Renton, Washington, revealed the lack of bolts, the NTSB said.
"Photo documentation obtained from Boeing shows evidence of the left-hand MED plug closed with no retention hardware (bolts) in the three visible locations," the report said, using an acronym for the middle exit door.
However, it was not clear at what stage in the manufacturing process the plane was in when the photo was taken.
The faulty plug was manufactured by Spirit AeroSystems Malaysia on March 24, 2023, and was received at Spirit AeroSystems Wichita on May 10, 2023, the report said. The plug was then installed and rigged on the Spirit AeroSystems Fuselage Line 8789 before it was shipped to Boeing on Aug. 20, 2023. The fuselage arrived at Boeing’s Renton facility on Aug. 31, 2023, according to the report.
In a statement Tuesday, Boeing said it appreciates the NTSB's work and will review the findings "expeditiously" while continuing to cooperate with investigations by the NTSB and Federal Aviation Administration.
“Whatever final conclusions are reached, Boeing is accountable for what happened," Boeing President and CEO Dave Calhoun said in the statement. "An event like this must not happen on an airplane that leaves our factory. We simply must do better for our customers and their passengers. We are implementing a comprehensive plan to strengthen quality and the confidence of our stakeholders. It will take significant, demonstrated action and transparency at every turn — and that is where we are squarely focused.”
The flight, carrying 177 people, left Portland, Oregon, on Jan. 5 bound for Ontario International Airport in San Bernardino County, California, when the door plug blew off, leaving a gaping hole in the side of the aircraft. Many passengers described hearing a "loud bang" shortly after takeoff. A photo from one passenger showed a panel missing from the side of the fuselage. The plane was forced to make an emergency landing in Portland, Oregon.
The FAA grounded all 171 Boeing 737 Max 9 airplanes operating in the U.S. amid the NTSB's investigation. The FAA also said it was increasing its oversight of Boeing production and manufacturing.
In his testimony to the House Transportation and Infrastructure Aviation Subcommittee on Tuesday, FAA Administrator Mike Whitaker offered more details on the increased scrutiny now underway at Boeing.
"We’re proposing to expand the oversight approach to include both audits and inspection which is why we’re moving inspectors into the facilities," Whitaker said. "We know what we need to do next, which is to have more on-the-ground presence to verify what’s going on."
Whitaker added the Jan. 5 incident has prompted the FAA to determine if there are any issues with production at Boeing.
"There have been issues in the past and they don’t seem to be getting resolved so we feel we need a heightened sense of oversight to get after that," he said. "I think we’re gonna need more boots on the ground, we’re gonna need more inspectors. We don’t have many inspectors on the aircraft certification side of the house."
Earlier this month, Alaska Airlines and United Airlines confirmed plans to return their fleet of Boeing 737 Max 9 planes to service. Alaska said in an earning report that it was preparing to complete inspections of its fleet and that each aircraft would be returned to service after passing inspection.
Several of the passengers on the flight where the door plug detached midair have sued Boeing. The class-action lawsuit claims that the company "delivered the subject 737 Max 9 to Alaska Airlines, Inc. without properly securing the (door) plug to the airframe," and the bolts and seals used to install the panel were defective. They said the incident left them traumatized and physically injured.
The suit states that after the door plug fell off, the plane depressurized and "ripped the shirt off of a boy and sucked cell phones, other debris and much of the oxygen out of the aircraft." The door plug has since been recovered and was sent to Washington as part of the NTSB's investigation.
PP
The flight left Portland, Oregon, on Jan. 5 bound for Ontario International Airport in San Bernardino County, California, when the door plug blew off.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/fa ... rcna136416
The door panel on an Alaska Airlines Boeing 737 that fell off midair had no bolts installed on the door plug, according to preliminary findings released Tuesday by the National Transportation Safety Board.
A picture of the plane in a factory in Renton, Washington, revealed the lack of bolts, the NTSB said.
"Photo documentation obtained from Boeing shows evidence of the left-hand MED plug closed with no retention hardware (bolts) in the three visible locations," the report said, using an acronym for the middle exit door.
However, it was not clear at what stage in the manufacturing process the plane was in when the photo was taken.
The faulty plug was manufactured by Spirit AeroSystems Malaysia on March 24, 2023, and was received at Spirit AeroSystems Wichita on May 10, 2023, the report said. The plug was then installed and rigged on the Spirit AeroSystems Fuselage Line 8789 before it was shipped to Boeing on Aug. 20, 2023. The fuselage arrived at Boeing’s Renton facility on Aug. 31, 2023, according to the report.
In a statement Tuesday, Boeing said it appreciates the NTSB's work and will review the findings "expeditiously" while continuing to cooperate with investigations by the NTSB and Federal Aviation Administration.
“Whatever final conclusions are reached, Boeing is accountable for what happened," Boeing President and CEO Dave Calhoun said in the statement. "An event like this must not happen on an airplane that leaves our factory. We simply must do better for our customers and their passengers. We are implementing a comprehensive plan to strengthen quality and the confidence of our stakeholders. It will take significant, demonstrated action and transparency at every turn — and that is where we are squarely focused.”
The flight, carrying 177 people, left Portland, Oregon, on Jan. 5 bound for Ontario International Airport in San Bernardino County, California, when the door plug blew off, leaving a gaping hole in the side of the aircraft. Many passengers described hearing a "loud bang" shortly after takeoff. A photo from one passenger showed a panel missing from the side of the fuselage. The plane was forced to make an emergency landing in Portland, Oregon.
The FAA grounded all 171 Boeing 737 Max 9 airplanes operating in the U.S. amid the NTSB's investigation. The FAA also said it was increasing its oversight of Boeing production and manufacturing.
In his testimony to the House Transportation and Infrastructure Aviation Subcommittee on Tuesday, FAA Administrator Mike Whitaker offered more details on the increased scrutiny now underway at Boeing.
"We’re proposing to expand the oversight approach to include both audits and inspection which is why we’re moving inspectors into the facilities," Whitaker said. "We know what we need to do next, which is to have more on-the-ground presence to verify what’s going on."
Whitaker added the Jan. 5 incident has prompted the FAA to determine if there are any issues with production at Boeing.
"There have been issues in the past and they don’t seem to be getting resolved so we feel we need a heightened sense of oversight to get after that," he said. "I think we’re gonna need more boots on the ground, we’re gonna need more inspectors. We don’t have many inspectors on the aircraft certification side of the house."
Earlier this month, Alaska Airlines and United Airlines confirmed plans to return their fleet of Boeing 737 Max 9 planes to service. Alaska said in an earning report that it was preparing to complete inspections of its fleet and that each aircraft would be returned to service after passing inspection.
Several of the passengers on the flight where the door plug detached midair have sued Boeing. The class-action lawsuit claims that the company "delivered the subject 737 Max 9 to Alaska Airlines, Inc. without properly securing the (door) plug to the airframe," and the bolts and seals used to install the panel were defective. They said the incident left them traumatized and physically injured.
The suit states that after the door plug fell off, the plane depressurized and "ripped the shirt off of a boy and sucked cell phones, other debris and much of the oxygen out of the aircraft." The door plug has since been recovered and was sent to Washington as part of the NTSB's investigation.
PP
Re: More Boeing Bad News
Juan's take on the NTSB Preliminary Report Alaska #1282 Door Plug Blowout
PP
PP
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Karearea
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Re: More Boeing Bad News
Did nobody have some bits left over, or say "Oh I wondered about that..." ?
So close to a total disaster.
*shudders*
So close to a total disaster.
*shudders*
Around the world thoughts shall fly In the twinkling of an eye
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Ex-Ascot
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Re: More Boeing Bad News
You have a very good point there Karearea. It must come as a kit you don't have to ferret in your tool box for suitable bolts.
'Yes, Madam, I am drunk, but in the morning I shall be sober and you will still be ugly.' Sir Winston Churchill.
Re: More Boeing Bad News
Previous flights apparently has reports from pax on previous flights of the aircraft of 'whistling' near the door plug !which received little attention! but it does look as if there was (fortunately) some 'unadmitted' policy of not filling the nearby seats. As a registered armchair quarterback/keyboard warrior' I must admit that with the sequence of events in Juan's timeline I would have hoped I would have stopped the climb earlier..... Of course, any reduction in positive 'g' as one levelled off would simply have accelerated the plug departure. Hey ho.
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Fox3WheresMyBanana
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Re: More Boeing Bad News
It will be very interesting to see how hard the FAA look for the bolts.
Bolts are not just left lying around in an aircraft plant - if nothing else, they are expensive.
So somebody must have 'tidied them up' and not told anyone.
And there are only three reasons for that, and they are all bad, and they all are evidence of a far worse culture at Boeing than just forgetfulness.
Bolts are not just left lying around in an aircraft plant - if nothing else, they are expensive.
So somebody must have 'tidied them up' and not told anyone.
And there are only three reasons for that, and they are all bad, and they all are evidence of a far worse culture at Boeing than just forgetfulness.
Re: More Boeing Bad News
Head(s) Are Rolling!
Boeing ousts head of 737 Max program in management shake-up
Boeing EVP Stanley A. Deal announced Wednesday that Ed Clark, the head of the company’s Boeing’s 737 Max program, was leaving the company.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/bo ... rcna139831
Boeing announced Wednesday the head of the company's 737 Max program is leaving the company in a management shake-up after a string of mishaps that have tarnished the aircraft manufacturer's once stellar reputation.
Boeing Executive Vice President Stanley A. Deal announced several leadership changes in an email to employees Wednesday, including that Ed Clark, the head of the company's Boeing’s 737 Max program, has been replaced.
“Ed departs with my, and our, deepest gratitude for his many significant contributions over nearly 18 years of dedicated service to Boeing,” Deal said.
The move comes after the company has been under intense scrutiny and pressure to ensure aircraft safety after a Jan. 5 incident in which an Alaska Airlines plane’s door panel detached in midair.
The incident prompted the Federal Aviation Administration to increase its oversight over Boeing production and manufacturer and a brief grounding of all Boeing 737 Max 9 airplanes operating in the U.S.
Deal said the changes are part of the company’s “enhanced focus on ensuring that every airplane we deliver meets or exceeds all quality and safety requirements.”
“Our customers demand, and deserve, nothing less,” he added.
PP
Boeing ousts head of 737 Max program in management shake-up
Boeing EVP Stanley A. Deal announced Wednesday that Ed Clark, the head of the company’s Boeing’s 737 Max program, was leaving the company.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/bo ... rcna139831
Boeing announced Wednesday the head of the company's 737 Max program is leaving the company in a management shake-up after a string of mishaps that have tarnished the aircraft manufacturer's once stellar reputation.
Boeing Executive Vice President Stanley A. Deal announced several leadership changes in an email to employees Wednesday, including that Ed Clark, the head of the company's Boeing’s 737 Max program, has been replaced.
“Ed departs with my, and our, deepest gratitude for his many significant contributions over nearly 18 years of dedicated service to Boeing,” Deal said.
The move comes after the company has been under intense scrutiny and pressure to ensure aircraft safety after a Jan. 5 incident in which an Alaska Airlines plane’s door panel detached in midair.
The incident prompted the Federal Aviation Administration to increase its oversight over Boeing production and manufacturer and a brief grounding of all Boeing 737 Max 9 airplanes operating in the U.S.
Deal said the changes are part of the company’s “enhanced focus on ensuring that every airplane we deliver meets or exceeds all quality and safety requirements.”
“Our customers demand, and deserve, nothing less,” he added.
PP