Not Avoiding the School

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llondel
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Not Avoiding the School

#1 Post by llondel » Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:34 pm

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51112630

OK, not quite crashing onto it, but doing a fuel dump over the school.
A passenger plane has dumped fuel over a school playground as it made an emergency landing at Los Angeles International Airport.

At least 17 children and nine adults are being treated for skin irritation and breathing problems.

Fuel may be dumped in emergencies, but aviation rules state that air traffic controllers must warn nearby facilities that could be affected.

A Delta Airlines flight reportedly had to return to the airport after takeoff.

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Re: Not Avoiding the School

#2 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:50 pm

Never forget blue ice...!

Bollocks to it, life is tough and even the blue bird of happiness craps on your head from time to time...

These kids must toughen up. I knew some kids who paid for the fumes they inhaled... :(
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Re: Not Avoiding the School

#3 Post by Mrs Ex-Ascot » Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:29 am

llondel wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:34 pm


OK, not quite crashing onto it, but doing a fuel dump over the school.
A passenger plane has dumped fuel over a school playground as it made an emergency landing at Los Angeles International Airport.

At least 17 children and nine adults are being treated for skin irritation and breathing problems.

Fuel may be dumped in emergencies, but aviation rules state that air traffic controllers must warn nearby facilities that could be affected.

A Delta Airlines flight reportedly had to return to the airport after takeoff.
All well and good in theory to warn people about fuel being dumped, however, as I'm sure this incident quite clearly shows there are some emergency situations when fuel needs to be dumped immediately to prevent a crash and resultant huge explosion!
RAF 32 Sqn B Flt ; Twin Squirrels.

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Re: Not Avoiding the School

#4 Post by Woody » Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:42 am

Apparently the aircraft landed and taxied to a gate, possibly not that major an emergency after all, maybe the American Sky gods just screwed up :-o
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Re: Not Avoiding the School

#5 Post by ExSp33db1rd » Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:59 am

..........maybe the American Sky gods just screwed up


What makes you think that they might have screwed up ? Obviously t this stage we have no idea what the emergency was that needed an immediate return to land, but dumping fuel to max landing weight to avoid a possible landing incident and therefore being unable to taxy successfully to a gate, sounds more like success than a screw up ? There was presumably some urgency to return which caused the unsuitable dumping area.
..........controllers must warn nearby facilities
Just how are they expected to do that ? Send them all a text message ? Do they have all their mobile telephone numbers ? Greater Los Angeles ? Needs must.

One is in more danger of being savaged by a motorised scooter on the sidewalk near LAX than being asphyxiated by jet fuel.

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Re: Not Avoiding the School

#6 Post by Woody » Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:03 am

I did say “maybe “
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Re: Not Avoiding the School

#7 Post by ExSp33db1rd » Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:05 am

That was quick ! I hadn't finished editing to add the quotes !

Doubtless all will be revealed in due course, for those who may be interested ?

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Re: Not Avoiding the School

#8 Post by probes » Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:27 am

So, being on ground, is there any way of noticing the imminent fuel spray?
Not that I'm endangered in any way (probably), just asking. Is it like mist, or fog or what?
Or shower? :ymdevil:

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Re: Not Avoiding the School

#9 Post by Mrs Ex-Ascot » Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:33 am

ExSp33db1rd wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:59 am
..........maybe the American Sky gods just screwed up


What makes you think that they might have screwed up ? Obviously t this stage we have no idea what the emergency was that needed an immediate return to land, but dumping fuel to max landing weight to avoid a possible landing incident and therefore being unable to taxy successfully to a gate, sounds more like success than a screw up ? There was presumably some urgency to return which caused the unsuitable dumping area.
..........controllers must warn nearby facilities
Just how are they expected to do that ? Send them all a text message ? Do they have all their mobile telephone numbers ? Greater Los Angeles ? Needs must.

One is in more danger of being savaged by a motorised scooter on the sidewalk near LAX than being asphyxiated by jet fuel.

Well exactly! As an ATCO dealing with an emergency the least of priorities is phoning/texting/instagraming/twittering or doing anything but concentrating on the situation in hand. In my RAF ATCO training we were never taught to warn all schools and hospitals of an impending crash on top of them. I was, however, taught the importance of not letting a crashing aircraft kill the Station Commanders Welsh Border Collie in Shawbury's Vis Sim. I did my best to delay the aircraft crashing into the PAR building which the dog had wandered into......but the dog had to go......Then I got the job of telling the Staich....at which point the exercise ended. :))
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Delta Airlines

#10 Post by Undried Plum » Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:00 pm


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Re: Not Avoiding the School

#11 Post by Boac » Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:33 pm

I suspect with US litigation as it is there will be a significant penalty for Delta on this. With the Ocean a few miles away and the alternate option of landing at take-off weight one asks 'why'. What Delta do to the crew.........................

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Re: Not Avoiding the School

#12 Post by boing » Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:00 am

What a bunch of pansies.

The Captain is certified and checked by the FAA not Delta, he was trained by Delta but the FAA license demonstrates that he was approved by the FAA. It could be argued that Delta was negligent in its training but this then raises the issue of how Delta's training procedures were approved, once again, by the FAA.

Part of the job is that you can do anything you consider wise to protect the aircraft and passengers. It is generally considered that subsequent criticism may be correct but since your butt was not in the seat at the time the actions taken by the crew are not culpable unless they exaggerate the emergency in which case their judgement will be examined. If for example, there was an engine failure how can the crew know how much airframe damage has been incurred so, after the failure, if the aircraft is flying like a pig and the Captain thinks it is time to lighten up then its up to the Captain to do what he thinks is best for the safety of the aircraft. I bet if he had plowed an aircraft full of fuel into a school someone would ask why the crew did not dump fuel.

I haven't read any newspaper comments but I would think it is going to be very difficult to sue somebody who is operating under the authority of the US Government which is the case if you are operating under a US FAA issued ATP.

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Re: Not Avoiding the School

#13 Post by llondel » Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:17 am

That won't stop some lawyer trying to set up a class action lawsuit against Delta and try to get all the parents of the kids (and the teachers) to sign up to it because if a million dollars were awarded, the plaintiffs would get a few hundred each and the lawyer would pocket half a million of it in fees.

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Re: Not Avoiding the School

#14 Post by ExSp33db1rd » Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:46 am

On being promoted to Captain,I was told that whatever I might do from now on, I must always ask myself ... can I justify my action at the subsequent Court of Enquiry ?

Hopefully the Delta Captain can.

No point guessing, wait for the facts.

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Re: Not Avoiding the School

#15 Post by Rwy in Sight » Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:12 am

We are not TOP but a question that can either be answered or what for the report. I understand that on fuel jettison systems you can either stop the dumping at MLW or after dumping a specific amount. Why the system was not activated and the amount set at the beginning of the jettison?

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Re: Not Avoiding the School

#16 Post by ExSp33db1rd » Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:01 am

My only experience is that we could dump as much or as little as we wished. But then we had a Flt. Eng. with a slide rule, it wasn't dependant upon a digital device, i.e open the taps for the pre-determined amount of time and monitor the fuel flow, then close the taps. Easy, more or less.

Once lost an engine shortly after take off ex-Muscat for Rome, bang, crash, wallop,visible flame. Stewardess screaming. Fire drill carried out, engine shut down and secured as per checklist, what to do next ? Dump fuel and return to land at Muscat ? Knew that Muscat would not let pax. leave the airport, very restrictive in who could "land" in those days, maybe still is ? No spare engine, so possible two or three day layover sleeping on the airport floor awaiting replacement and fitting. Aircraft flying OK, spare engine at Bahrain so let's carry on, stop climb at 5,000 ft to achieve higher fuel burn and help weight loss, and not far to go, start dumping to landing weight. Suddenly many oil rig flares ! Christ ! we're going to set the Gulf on fire, turn away, stop dumping (OK, at that height unlikely that vaporised fuel would reach sea level in a flammable state, but it gave food for thought ! ) Eventually flew past the flares, continued dumping, landed at Bahrain, pax. accommodated and some re-booked to continue as flights available, engineers flown out to fit the spare engine in store, 24 hr. delay. Job done. Return to Muscat not a credible option, unless there had been imminent danger.

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Re: Not Avoiding the School

#17 Post by boing » Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:20 am

One "aviation expert" describes the children as being doused with gasoline. (Petrol for the non-yanks).

Another seems to think a small engine fire is OK.

Time to hide until they get the grown-ups making the comments instead of the video-game players.

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Re: Not Avoiding the School

#18 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:46 am

boing wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:20 am
One "aviation expert" describes the children as being doused with gasoline. (Petrol for the non-yanks).

Another seems to think a small engine fire is OK.

Time to hide until they get the grown-ups making the comments instead of the video-game players.

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The press are beyond parody here in the UK. It seems that the USA suffers from the same idiotic press syndrome.
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Re: Not Avoiding the School

#19 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:22 am

TheGreenGoblin wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:50 pm
Never forget blue ice...!

I knew some kids who paid for the fumes they inhaled... :(

I refer of course to the scourge of nitrous oxide. A craze that is endemic among the youth in the UK in cities, small town and villages.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recreatio ... rous_oxide

While inhaling Jet A fumes is clearly very bad for one, this case was a clearly a decision made in extremis. No doubt it will end up with the lawyers while people are quite happy to ignore the far more pernicious danger of car exhaust pollution to children etc. in the USA and elsewhere in the world.

We live in a mad house.
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Re: Not Avoiding the School

#20 Post by Boac » Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:36 am

this case was a clearly a decision made in extremis
- aha! You have the enquiry results! There was me reserving the cock-up theory too as an option.

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