RyanAir near accident at Bergerac (NB 2105!!)

Post Reply
Message
Author
Boac
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17209
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2015 5:12 pm
Location: Here

RyanAir near accident at Bergerac (NB 2105!!)

#1 Post by Boac » Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:36 am

Av Herald has published this report (released over 5 years from the event!!) http://avherald.com/h?article=48196bf2&opt=0

It is a dreadful indictment of the state of piloting in the 21st century. A crew where the F/O appeared UNABLE to fly a basic NDB procedure (how did he get a rating?) and the Captain managed to screw up his responsibilities. What is unexplained is why the Captain, who appeared to be PF on the initial approach, watched the F/O try to set up an NDB approach in LNAV (incorrectly), and then appears to have handed over to the F/O to fly the approach? He then appears to have completely failed to monitor the F/O's flying (wrong modes) and 'lost' where the a/c was in the procedure. The NDB 'Y' as published by A H is pretty simple to fly. A lucky escape, saved by GPWS.

Pontius Navigator
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 14669
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:17 am
Location: Gravity be the clue
Gender:
Age: 80

Re: RyanAir near accident at Bergerac (NB 2105!!)

#2 Post by Pontius Navigator » Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:12 am

Sounds like a very lucky escape. Too easy to assume you are 'right' and the GPWS is spurious.

User avatar
TheGreenGoblin
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17596
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:02 pm
Location: With the Water People near Trappist-1

Re: RyanAir near accident at Bergerac (NB 2105!!)

#3 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:27 am

I might raise your pertinent question with my neighbour, very occasional pint drinker at local, sometime fellow spam can pilot/co-pilot on local jaunts , and chief training Captain for said airline at Stansted! He of course is a superb pilot who came up the hard old fashioned way, building hours, flight instructing, flying Sheds etc. to get where he is. Good guy who lives for flying, setting and evolving good standards but not responsible for the economically driven personnel decisions that put children FO's next to Captains who now may not have come up the route he did!
He remained unaware of the first officer's lack of experience with this type of approach, after passing BGC LNAV and V/S modes were engaged
Sums it up really! God help these folks if they flew in Africa where the NDB approach is still very much extant!
Though you remain
Convinced
"To be alive
You must have somewhere
To go
Your destination remains
Elusive."

Boac
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17209
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2015 5:12 pm
Location: Here

Re: RyanAir near accident at Bergerac (NB 2105!!)

#4 Post by Boac » Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:46 am

It is a shame, because I have always admired and defended RyanAir's pilot training and standards over the years against many 'detractors'. Obviously a large Emmental appeared here.

User avatar
Rwy in Sight
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 6740
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2015 8:04 pm
Location: Lost in an FIR somewhere
Gender:

Re: RyanAir near accident at Bergerac (NB 2105!!)

#5 Post by Rwy in Sight » Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:43 pm

TheGreenGoblin wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:27 am


Sums it up really! God help these folks if they flew in Africa where the NDB approach is still very much extant!
If my understanding is correct (obviously a pax and not even frequent) is that NDB approaches are frequent thus they would get the practice they don't have here in Europe.

Boac
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17209
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2015 5:12 pm
Location: Here

Re: RyanAir near accident at Bergerac (NB 2105!!)

#6 Post by Boac » Sun Jun 28, 2020 1:02 pm

It is baffling for me to understand how this could have happened. 'Growing up' on RBI NDB approaches, improving to RMI NDB approaches and finally seeing the whole damn thing drawn out for me in technicolour on the NAV display with NDB pointers, inbound track and the actual runway I am aiming to bounce on shown I cannot understand how this cock-up happened. Even if the F/O was out of his depth, the Captain should have been able to see 'where' they were and where they 'should' have been going.

User avatar
TheGreenGoblin
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17596
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:02 pm
Location: With the Water People near Trappist-1

Re: RyanAir near accident at Bergerac (NB 2105!!)

#7 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Sun Jun 28, 2020 1:14 pm

Rwy in Sight wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:43 pm
TheGreenGoblin wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:27 am

Sums it up really! God help these folks if they flew in Africa where the NDB approach is still very much extant!
If my understanding is correct (obviously a pax and not even frequent) is that NDB approaches are frequent thus they would get the practice they don't have here in Europe.
RiS, simplistically, the NDB or non directional beacon is/was a fixed radio transmitter used as a navaid and is not a precision guidance system. At its most basic It effectively allows a pilot to use an Automatic Direction Finder (ADF) to track, from any direction to the beacon. It has been supplanted in most 1st world countries but is still found as a primary navigation aid in some parts of Africa (although this is changing now too). Pilots in Europe are unlikely to encounter NDB approaches or let downs to a runway on a regular basis (although it may be necessary to make such an approach as NDB beacons may be used as part of non precision approaches which may be promulgated as backups to approaches using the primary more modern navaids) Thus in Europe (for example) many pilots don't get a lot of regular day to day practice of NDB tracking or approaches and may become rusty through lack of practice of their use in their particular aircraft and then get get caught out when they find themselves making an unexpected non-precision approach one stormy night when the chips are down. Proficiency is tested as part of the renewal of the Instrument Rating but a pilot soon becomes rusty again for want of practice.
Though you remain
Convinced
"To be alive
You must have somewhere
To go
Your destination remains
Elusive."

User avatar
TheGreenGoblin
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17596
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:02 pm
Location: With the Water People near Trappist-1

Re: RyanAir near accident at Bergerac (NB 2105!!)

#8 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:09 pm

RiS, simplistically, the NDB or non directional beacon is/was a fixed radio transmitter used as a navaid and is not a precision guidance system. At its most basic It effectively allows a pilot to use an Automatic Direction Finder (ADF) to track, from any direction to the beacon
Or away from it of course!
Though you remain
Convinced
"To be alive
You must have somewhere
To go
Your destination remains
Elusive."

User avatar
Rwy in Sight
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 6740
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2015 8:04 pm
Location: Lost in an FIR somewhere
Gender:

Re: RyanAir near accident at Bergerac (NB 2105!!)

#9 Post by Rwy in Sight » Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:09 pm

TGG, I mixed up NDB and VOR circling approach so I thought NDB is a common form of instrument approach when the ILS is not an option. Thanks for reminding me the difference.

Pontius Navigator
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 14669
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:17 am
Location: Gravity be the clue
Gender:
Age: 80

Re: RyanAir near accident at Bergerac (NB 2105!!)

#10 Post by Pontius Navigator » Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:28 pm

Reminds me of an NDB hold and procedure we did at Tehran. Our ADF fit was always crap so rather than confess that we couldn't pick up the beacon we flew an immaculatel procedure using the radar to identify the beacon position. On landing we were asked how we found the beacon. OK we said, TY they said, it had been reported as u/s. 😕

User avatar
Rwy in Sight
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 6740
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2015 8:04 pm
Location: Lost in an FIR somewhere
Gender:

Re: RyanAir near accident at Bergerac (NB 2105!!)

#11 Post by Rwy in Sight » Sun Jun 28, 2020 6:02 pm

PN is this an example of airmanship or lateral thinking?

Pontius Navigator
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 14669
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:17 am
Location: Gravity be the clue
Gender:
Age: 80

Re: RyanAir near accident at Bergerac (NB 2105!!)

#12 Post by Pontius Navigator » Sun Jun 28, 2020 6:12 pm

RiS. difficult to say. Probably more to conceal the fact that our aircraft was not as stare of the art as we liked to portray to the world.

Boac
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17209
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2015 5:12 pm
Location: Here

Re: RyanAir near accident at Bergerac (NB 2105!!)

#13 Post by Boac » Sun Jun 28, 2020 6:15 pm

I flew an NDB into Tripoli R09?? a few years back on a u/s NDB. I hope ATC were suitably impressed.......

User avatar
TheGreenGoblin
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17596
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:02 pm
Location: With the Water People near Trappist-1

Re: RyanAir near accident at Bergerac (NB 2105!!)

#14 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:11 pm

Rwy in Sight wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 6:02 pm
PN is this an example of airmanship or lateral thinking?
When lateral thinking and an NDB let down/cloud break and approach procedure goes wrong...

http://www.caa.co.za/Accidents%20and%20 ... s/8894.pdf
Though you remain
Convinced
"To be alive
You must have somewhere
To go
Your destination remains
Elusive."

User avatar
Rwy in Sight
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 6740
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2015 8:04 pm
Location: Lost in an FIR somewhere
Gender:

Re: RyanAir near accident at Bergerac (NB 2105!!)

#15 Post by Rwy in Sight » Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:44 pm

TGG thanks for all those small reminders that SOP are written using the blood of people lost on previous accidents

User avatar
Ex-Ascot
Test Pilot
Test Pilot
Posts: 13096
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2015 7:16 am
Location: Botswana but sometimes Greece
Gender:
Age: 68

Re: RyanAir near accident at Bergerac (NB 2105!!)

#16 Post by Ex-Ascot » Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:40 am

Question, on an NDB approach as long as you do not go below MDA at any point before visual or go around is it OK? Reason is I was failed on my first civil instrument rating for getting to MDA and holding it too early.
'Yes, Madam, I am drunk, but in the morning I shall be sober and you will still be ugly.' Sir Winston Churchill.

Boac
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17209
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2015 5:12 pm
Location: Here

Re: RyanAir near accident at Bergerac (NB 2105!!)

#17 Post by Boac » Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:14 am

Basically correct, but diving like a brick to MDA at 5 miles and staying there would not impress me! =))

In the RY case there was a beacon check height they broke good and early.

User avatar
Ex-Ascot
Test Pilot
Test Pilot
Posts: 13096
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2015 7:16 am
Location: Botswana but sometimes Greece
Gender:
Age: 68

Re: RyanAir near accident at Bergerac (NB 2105!!)

#18 Post by Ex-Ascot » Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:32 am

Boac wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:14 am
Basically correct, but diving like a brick to MDA at 5 miles and staying there would not impress me! =))

In the RY case there was a beacon check height they broke good and early.
It was decades ago so I can't remember but I think I was only 1.5 nm off. The examiner invited me to talk to my nav for advice on decent rates and drift and let me have another bash at it and I passed. Can't remember the examiner's name now but a well know CAA guy. Did it in one of HMQ's personal aircraft which was very decent of her. Don't think the news of the screw up ever got back to Buck House.

Mind you the chap (very tall) did have concussion having smashed his head on the flight deck door on entering. He announced that he was actually qualified on the 748. My boss, who was the Capt, said, 'So we can't get away with very much then'. Thank you boss.

Capt Gunn maybe? Yes pretty sure.
'Yes, Madam, I am drunk, but in the morning I shall be sober and you will still be ugly.' Sir Winston Churchill.

Post Reply