2 dead fire-fighting in Nevada

[Boac]

https://www.airlive.net/alert-two-pilot ... in-midair/

[TheGreenGoblin]

I wonder what the ATC protocols are around air traffic involved in fighting a fire like this? I assume that there is a director/controller who co-ordinates these drops?

[Boac]

I doubt it - "see and be seen" (or not.............)

[PHXPhlyer]

Typically the "Air Boss" is in an air attack plane orbiting above everything. They coordinate with the lead ships that guide the heavy tankers in. They also coordinate with ground crews to set up drops, both fixed wing and helos. They also act as radio relay for ground crews, as their FM radios are line of sight and ridges are usually in the way.
The air attack usually has 2 a/c radios to talk to airborne assets and also communicate with other aircraft such as media aircraft trying to get video. The Air Boss typically has at least two FM radios to talk to ground assets.
Helos are usually given an area to work and report coming in and leaving to P/U water.
I never worked with small tankers like the ones that mid-aired.
G-Man can probably give an update on current ops.

PP

[G~Man]

G-Man can probably give an update on current ops.

PHXPhlyer pretty much nailed it.

Pretty much once down that low, the SEAT's, (Single Engine Air Tankers), were prolly just talking to each other. Air Attack will have cleared them both low level and explained the drop. I do not think there was a "lead Plane" which typically only works with he larger tankers.

If it is a "helicopter show" then there may be a "Helco" platform, which is effectively controlling all the helicopters. Either way, it is not "direct control" as in fly this altitude and heading etc. Typically we are given "fences" that we cannot cross and altitude limits, but once in our "box" we are free for all and talk to each other. This I suspect is how the SEATs were working.

This video gives an idea of the airspace we work in:

[llondel]

Watching our local practical demonstration the other day, there was one aircraft orbiting fairly high up, and two orbiting lower down, plus helicopters buzzing around often on radial routes but at much different altitudes to the circling aircraft.

Must go dig out the frequencies they're using, could be quite instructive.

[PHXPhlyer]

Top one is probably air attack flying the air boss. Lower ones could be lead ships which show large tankers the line that they want them to drop on, taking terrain, wind and escape route if needed.

PP

[G~Man]

To give you an idea of the amount of traffic over a fire, this is JUST fire aircraft working the fire in the hills above San Bernadino right now:

[PHXPhlyer]

G-Man's map shows 2 Dc-10 tankers, 2 BAE 146 tankers and 2 NA OV-10s, either air attack or lead ships.
I'm surprised that none of CDF's CL-214Ts showed up on the plot.
In my day the USFS used Barons as lead ships.
What are they using today G-Man?

PP

[ian16th]

G-Man's map shows 2 Dc-10 tankers, 2 BAE 146 tankers and 2 NA OV-10s, either air attack or lead ships.
I'm surprised that none of CDF's CL-214Ts showed up on the plot.
In my day the USFS used Barons as lead ships.
What are they using today G-Man?

PP

What make the Bae 146 suitable for such a mission?

[TheGreenGoblin]

BAE System's note on the BAE146 role in firefighting...

BAE 146 tankers

The BAe 146/Avro RJ is one of the ‘Next-gen’ Airtankers that are replacing previous early generation vintage aircraft in this demanding aerial firefighting role. They have to fly faster, be turbine- or jet-powered, and as Type 1 Large Airtankers, have a capacity of at least 3,000 gallons of fire retardant.

Now proven in fire-fighting service, the BAe 146/Avro RJ represents over half of the Large Airtankers earmarked under ‘Exclusive Use’ multi-year contracts awarded by the United States Forest Service (USFS) to operators – a total of 11 aircraft out of 19 that are earmarked for ‘Exclusive Use’.

Sometimes pilots, as ever, can take it to the Max and then some...

One of the most impressive demonstrations of a tanker I have seen was the 727 at the last Farnborough Air Show. (THE LINK RELATES TO AN EARLIER YEAR)

[ian16th]

Ah! de Haviland.

[TheGreenGoblin]

Ah! de Haviland.

I should pay more attention to your briefer posts... I had forgotten the Hawker Siddeley had inherited the company in 1960.

[ian16th]

Ah! de Haviland.

I should pay more attention to your briefer posts... I had forgotten the Hawker Siddeley had inherited the company in 1960.

I believe that 146 was the last de Haviland type number used.

If as usual, I'm wrong, someone on this forum will tell us.

[G~Man]

There are all sorts of aircraft on fires over here depending upon which part of the country:

Air Attacks: These are aerial supervision aircraft, pilots are normally not authorized to fly below 1,000 and just fly, will have an "ATGS", (air attack ground supervisor), doing the talking, normally flying Twin Commanders. Cal-Fire in California only uses AV-10 Broncos, which can depending upon the qualification of the pilot, go below 1,000' and act as a lead plane also.

Lead Planes: Name says it all, they will stay on a fire and control the tankers and lead them for each drop, pilot may or may not also be a trained air attack. Single person on board, normally King Air 90's and 200's

VLATs-Very Large Air Tankers: 747, DC-10

LAT's: Large Air Tankers: C-130's, Bae 146's, MD-87, RJ85, convair CV-580, CL-215, most of the P2's are now retired, and some of the P3 Orions are now coming back

SEATs--Singe Engine Air Tankers---air tractor 802's

Smoke Jump planes: DeHavilland DH-6 300 series Twin Otter, Shorts Sherpa C-23A and SD3-60, Dornier 228, and CASA 212.

Helicopters Type 1: Air Cranes, S-61's, K-max, Black Hawks, Chinooks, Boeing C-47's, & 107"s, Augusta 139's

Type 2's: Hueys, Bell 205, 212, 214, Sikorsky S-58T

TYPE 3's, Bell 407, 206L, 206B, Astars,

I am sure I missed some along the way.......

[llondel]

Top one is probably air attack flying the air boss. Lower ones could be lead ships which show large tankers the line that they want them to drop on, taking terrain, wind and escape route if needed.

PP

This is the local contingent, I think it's a boss plus two doing drops. I didn't manage to get a picture but I've seen a few drops, bright red retardant spreading everywhere.

[TheGreenGoblin]

Air attack etc. seems to encompass a lot of the skills a forward air controller might need and then some, taking, account of the various airborne assets with their varying capabilities available while monitoring teams on the ground and their position in relation to their ever moving and only partly predict able enemy, namely fire.

Interesting thread and thanks to those who are sharing their knowledge here.

[TheGreenGoblin]

I was looking at the role of the Avro RJs conversion as Borate bombers/airtankers in North America.

I note that the RJ85 is used by a small number of companies such as Neptune Aviation Services (2 in Missoula Montana), Minden Air ( 1 at Minden), Nevada (who are testing 1 and converting another) and Air Spray who operate 2 former BAE 146 series 200 aircraft.

The Canadians seem to be the biggest operators with the Conair flying 9 of the aircraft. Conair also have a gaggle of other aircraft including Convair 580 Forecasts, Douglas DC-6's and Lockheed Electra's.

[PHXPhlyer]

1989 1st real flying job after instructing. Part 135 flying tours over the Grand Canyon.
Grand Canyon Airport (Elev. 6608') had a USFS tanker base with a DC-6.
Whenever the 6 launched it was an interesting sight as it usually had to follow the lower terrain after T/O with a full load.
At Prescott, AZ, about 100 NM south, the Forest Service based a P2V that once had to dump its load on T/O and took out the front of a Circle K convenience store located across the road from the departure end of the runway. I don't know how long it took to get the red out.
The next year a my new company I was OAS (Office of Aircraft Services) carded for Air Attack, Recon, and Point to Point.
We used C182,182RG and T210 for recon and air attack, and Caravan, Twin Otter, Chieftain and others for point-to-point.
Flying for the Park Service, Forest Service, and BLM was always a welcome diversion from flying the usual tours of Grand Canyon, Monument Valley, and Lake Powell.

PP

[G~Man]

Most of the Huey's flying on fires here spent time in Vietnam. This is the one I fly occasionally, it took a bullet thru the chin bubble in Vietnam..... This is outside my office on Friday: