Boeing cargo jet crashes into the sea.

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Re: Boeing cargo jet crashes into the sea.

#21 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Sun Jul 04, 2021 6:00 pm



They delayed the landing slightly, planning to run checks and then things got a lot worse!
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Re: Boeing cargo jet crashes into the sea.

#22 Post by llondel » Sun Jul 04, 2021 7:28 pm

I know there's training and procedures and checklists but is there a point at which you decide **** it, we're just going in because we have no time for anything else (I guess low fuel warning would be one, you're going to hit the ground shortly regardless)? If they'd just decided to circle straight back and plant it, they might have made it, although that's easy to say with hindsight, and if something else had gone wrong they might have made a bigger mess.

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Re: Boeing cargo jet crashes into the sea.

#23 Post by EA01 » Mon Jul 05, 2021 12:46 am

-200s are still flying? .... :/

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Re: Boeing cargo jet crashes into the sea.

#24 Post by EA01 » Mon Jul 05, 2021 12:47 am

OK, properly maintained sure,....but goodness me, I cannot think of the last time I saw one....

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Re: Boeing cargo jet crashes into the sea.

#25 Post by llondel » Mon Jul 05, 2021 1:24 am

EA01 wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 12:46 am
-200s are still flying? .... :/
Not that one...

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Re: Boeing cargo jet crashes into the sea.

#26 Post by Pontius Navigator » Mon Jul 05, 2021 8:19 am

On the Nimrod we were shown the film of a model ditching. The procedure was to enter with a high nose up attitude and the rear fuselage up sweep parallel to the sea.

As the drag slowed the aircraft it would eventually hammer down at a calculated 25g killing the flight deck crew and most of the mission crew behind.

Of course Art Stacey proved the model outcome was wrong. Did the 737 land like that and then break up releasing the cargo?

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Re: Boeing cargo jet crashes into the sea.

#27 Post by Pontius Navigator » Mon Jul 05, 2021 8:21 am

TGG, regarding the 5 foot swell, I wonder what the interval was between peaks.

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Re: Boeing cargo jet crashes into the sea.

#28 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Mon Jul 05, 2021 11:07 am

Pontius Navigator wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 8:21 am
TGG, regarding the 5 foot swell, I wonder what the interval was between peaks.
You get some idea about the sea state from the night vision camera on the Coast Guard Helicopter here.

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Re: Boeing cargo jet crashes into the sea.

#29 Post by Ex-Ascot » Mon Jul 05, 2021 11:29 am

Pontius Navigator wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 8:19 am
On the Nimrod we were shown the film of a model ditching. The procedure was to enter with a high nose up attitude and the rear fuselage up sweep parallel to the sea.

As the drag slowed the aircraft it would eventually hammer down at a calculated 25g killing the flight deck crew and most of the mission crew behind.

Of course Art Stacey proved the model outcome was wrong. Did the 737 land like that and then break up releasing the cargo?
One of my instructors at Cranwell. Came onto the flight deck of one of my Monach flights to see if he knew anyone.

They always reckoned that if we ditched the 10, and were successful, it would slide gracefully to the bottom tail first. :YMPARTY:
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Re: Boeing cargo jet crashes into the sea.

#30 Post by Pontius Navigator » Mon Jul 05, 2021 11:47 am

One reason the Nimrod eventually got immersion suits, other than Art's ditching, was the Atlantic doing a couple of successful ditching.

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Re: Boeing cargo jet crashes into the sea.

#31 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Mon Jul 05, 2021 12:46 pm

Pontius Navigator wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 11:47 am
One reason the Nimrod eventually got immersion suits, other than Art's ditching, was the Atlantic doing a couple of successful ditching.
I guess I must be the only person here who had to find out what Art Stacey did...

bae-nimrod-raf.jpg
bae-nimrod-raf.jpg (62.65 KiB) Viewed 353 times
On 16 May 1995, one of Britain's Nimrod R.1 sigint collection aircraft (XW666) was forced to ditch in the Moray Firth after its No.4 engine encountered a major mechanical failure. This, in turn, caused a turbine blade to puncture one of the fuel tanks and a major fire resulted which threatened to burn through the wing.

Flight Lieutenant Art Stacey managed to ditch the aircraft in the Moray Firth before the wing structure burnt through. His skilful flying allowed all seven crew members to transfer to dinghies before being picked up by a Sea King helicopter for RAF Lossiemouth. The subsequent Board of Inquiry recommend various improvements to the Nimrod fleet to reduce fire risk, but these were not undertaken.

In 1995, Britain's fleet of three Nimrod R.1 sigint aircraft had been stretched by the task of monitoring the conflict in the Former Yugoslavia. A replacement aircraft was badly needed. This was obtained by modifying a standard maritime Nimrod (XV249) to R.1 standard. The complex business of fitting out the sigint equipment took more than a year.
Of course flying an aircraft that leaked fuel like a sieve was ultimately going to have a bad outcome, over land or sea, and it did.
The RAF's Nimrod XV230 was the first of thirth-eight Nimrod MR2 reconnaissance aircraft to enter service and had been flying since 2 October 1969. Its main role was anti-submarine warfare and its presence over Afghanistan may, at first sight, seem puzzling. The arrival of maritime reconnaissance aircraft reflected that fact that the Ministry of Defence had previously purchased poor quality UAVs (drones) that had performed badly in the extreme heat of Iraq and would not operate at all at the high altitudes to be found in Afghanistan.

The Maritime Nimrods were deployed to fill the gap. In 2003, XV230 was one of six Nimrods equipped with an L-3 Wescam MX-15 electro-optical turret designed to capture video imagery. In the summer of 2006, XV230 was given the added capability to transmit real-time video imagery from the MX-15 to ground stations and commanders. This was implemented under Project Broadsword.

XV230 crashed in Afghanistan on 2 September 2006, killing 14 military personnel in Britain's worst single loss since the Falklands War. The dead included two signallers, one attached to the SBS, (SBS Signals Squadron) and the other to the SFSG (268 (SFSG) Signals Squadron). The Nimrod was supporting Operation Medusa, a major NATO offensive against the Taliban, which included UK Special Forces on the ground.

Subsequent inquiries identified both fundamental design faults that has exisited since the 1960s and also poor maintenance resulting from cost-cutting and negligence by senior officers. In March 2009, the Ministry of Defence admitted responsibility for the deaths of the 14 servicemen aboard Nimrod aircraft XV230.
https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/pais/peop ... chq/xv230/
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Re: Boeing cargo jet crashes into the sea.

#32 Post by Ex-Ascot » Tue Jul 06, 2021 6:12 am

To ditch or not to ditch. This is Art's thought process. Great guy and as you can imagine an excellent instructor. His crew were lucky to have him in the driving seat that day and he certainly deserved the AFC.

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Re: Boeing cargo jet crashes into the sea.

#33 Post by Pinky the pilot » Tue Jul 06, 2021 7:50 am

he certainly deserved the AFC.
Why not the DFC? :-\
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Re: Boeing cargo jet crashes into the sea.

#34 Post by Ex-Ascot » Tue Jul 06, 2021 8:16 am

Pinky the pilot wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 7:50 am
he certainly deserved the AFC.
Why not the DFC? :-\
He wasn't in active operations.
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Re: Boeing cargo jet crashes into the sea.

#35 Post by Pontius Navigator » Tue Jul 06, 2021 8:21 am

Certainly well deserved.

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Re: Boeing cargo jet crashes into the sea.

#36 Post by ian16th » Tue Jul 06, 2021 9:03 am

The parameters for the AFC have been updated to align with NATO.
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Re: Boeing cargo jet crashes into the sea.

#37 Post by Pontius Navigator » Tue Jul 06, 2021 9:11 am

I see the numbers awarded since 1980 are a fraction of those awarded since WW2. No doubt this is due to the much smaller air force since 1990 and greater safety and reliability of more modern aircraft.

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Re: Boeing cargo jet crashes into the sea.

#38 Post by Ex-Ascot » Tue Jul 06, 2021 9:30 am

I should have got an AFC. All those thousands of lives I saved, who were in grave danger, with me at the controls and i got them down safely. All I ever got was a 'Good Show'. B-)
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Re: Boeing cargo jet crashes into the sea.

#39 Post by Boac » Tue Jul 06, 2021 9:46 am

Time for the old joke

You wish to die peacefully in your sleep, not like your passengers, screaming in terror...............

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Re: Boeing cargo jet crashes into the sea.

#40 Post by TheGreenAnger » Thu Jan 26, 2023 12:05 pm

Transair 737 ditching inquiry reveals pilots’ uncertainty over failed engine

Investigation details from the Transair Boeing 737-200 freighter ditching off Honolulu in 2021 year indicates uncertainty from the pilots over which of the aircraft’s engines had initially failed shortly after the jet took off.

Flight-data recorder information released by the National Transportation Safety Board, released in a docket on 19 December, shows a sudden drop of thrust on the right-hand engine as the aircraft climbed through 390ft.

The climb paused at 1,000ft before continuing to 2,000ft at which point the thrust on the left-hand engine reduced to idle – where it stayed for the remainder of the flight.

Thrust for the right engine also reduced further at 2,000ft but then continued to fluctuate, at low level, several times while the crew was attempting to keep the jet airborne and return to the airport.

Cockpit-voice recorder transcripts from the 2 July 2021 accident show that, a few seconds after take-off, and just after the ‘gear up’ call, the captain mentioned the loss of an engine.

The first officer, who was flying, replied “number two” – an apparent reference to the right-hand powerplant – and the captain also said, “number two”.

After levelling at 2,000ft the crew declared an emergency to air traffic control, informing that they had “lost an engine”, but did not immediately indicate which one.

NTSB.JPG

According to the transcript, the captain asked the first officer to “read the gauges” to determine which “has the EGT” – the exhaust gas temperature – to which the first officer replied: “It looks like the number one.”

The captain then responded, “Number one is gone?”, and the first officer responded: “[It’s] gone, yep…so we have number two.”

“So we have number two, OK,” the captain then remarked.

But as the crew sought to run checklists and co-ordinate the return to Honolulu airport, the aircraft’s airspeed declined and it lost altitude. The first officer appeared to mention that the right-hand engine had reached “red line” and the captain advised air traffic control that they could potentially be facing a dual engine failure.

The 737 could not maintain height and it struck the ocean surface, breaking up, but both crew members – the only occupants – survived.

In subsequent testimony to investigators, the first officer said he had heard a ‘pop’ from the vicinity of the left engine around the time the landing-gear retracted, and initially believed the left engine had failed.

The captain told the inquiry that he thought the left-hand engine had the problem, at first, before changing his mind – based on the aircraft’s yaw and roll motion – and telling the first officer that he thought the right-hand engine was the one affected.

But during his testimony the captain referred to the first officer’s having told him that the number one engine, the left-hand powerplant, had failed.

The captain told investigators that the first officer, which whom he had flown several times, “never makes a mistake”, adding: “If [he] says number one is gone, then number one is gone.”

Investigators have tried to clarify the positions of the thrust levers, whether they were symmetrical or split, and the extent to which each was moved by either pilot during the event.

The captain was asked about the position of the left-hand engine thrust lever and the left-hand engine instruments, but told the inquiry that he “ignored it” because he believed the engine was not functioning, adding: “We don’t have number one, we don’t have number one, so I didn’t pay attention to number one engine. My focus was on the engine running, which was number two.”

Investigators queried the captain over his initial belief that the number two engine was the one that had malfunctioned, which he acknowledged, but pointed out that he believed the first officer, as the flying pilot, would know which engine had failed.

At one point during the testimony, the captain picked up on a remark from the investigator about the position of the number one thrust lever, and whether it had been moved backwards.

“Why are we talking about number one thrust lever?” he asked the investigator conducting the interview. He also asked the investigator to confirm which engine had the problem, but the investigator could not disclose the information or provide a fuller explanation.

But the questions on the number one engine and thrust lever were sufficient for the captain to remark to the inquiry, a short time later, that he was “beginning to wonder” whether the crew “shut down the wrong engine” – although he clarified to investigators that neither engine was actually shut down.

Investigators have not reached any conclusions on the circumstances of the accident, and the reasons for the recorded losses of thrust in the 737’s engines.
https://www.flightglobal.com/safety/tra ... 17.article

Previously - Transair or rather, Rhoades Aviation, which operates Transair flights, had less than a stellar 2021 and 2022.. <<On May 25, 2022, citing numerous safety violations found during its investigation of Flight 810, the FAA announced that it is revoking Rhoades' air operator's certificate. Among the cited violations were 33 flights undertaken with engines that were not airworthy. Rhoades was given until June 8 to appeal the agency's decision.>> - Wiki
The FAA has taken action to prevent Rhoades Aviation, which operates Transair flights, from “flying or conducting maintenance inspections.” The move effectively grounds Transair, which was involved in an accident on July 2 when Flight 810, an all-cargo Boeing 737-200, suffered engine trouble shortly after departing Honolulu International Airport and ditched off the coast of Oahu in Mamala Bay. The U.S. Coast Guard rescued the two flight crewmembers shortly after the crash.

In a statement, the FAA said Rhoades Aviation hadn't complied with federal aviation regulations and had been under investigation since fall 2020. On June 13, the FAA notified the company that it identified deficiencies as part of the investigation and would rescind the operator's authority to conduct maintenance inspections. Rhoades failed to ask the agency to reconsider the decision within the prescribed 30-day period and so lost its maintenance authority at midnight Thursday. Without such authority, the FAA noted in its statement, the carrier also cannot legally operate.

But this was not the first time that the accident airplane, N810TA, experienced engine failure. According to the FAA's Service Difficulty Reports database, on April 8, 2018, the company reported that the aircraft’s No. 1 engine failed during takeoff. In its description of the problem, Transair stated, “got 3 backfiring [sic] before engine shutdown…” Inspectors later removed the engine's fuel pump and found it to have a broken shaft. About nine months later, on Jan. 30, 2019, the company reported another failure of N810TA's No. 1 engine. The description of that problem was less detailed, noting only that “NR 1 engine fail at around 2000 [feet]. On final performed engine failure/shutdown checklist…”

The two engines did not carry the same serial number. Further, in the 2018 failure, the engine had accumulated 23,657 hours total time and 35,753 total cycles, while in the 2019 failure the engine had 71,706 total hours and 67,194 total cycles. Authorities have not yet released the serial numbers of the engines used during Flight 810, but the flight crew did report the loss of an engine to Honolulu tower shortly after takeoff, and data from FlightAware shows it did not climb above 2,100 feet. A few minutes later, while attempting to return to the airport, the crew announced the second engine was overheating and likely to fail as well. The aircraft subsequently ditched in Mamala Bay.

Last week, the NTSB released photographs of the wreckage, which lay in pieces on the seafloor between 360 and 420 feet deep. A preliminary report on the accident was pending at the time this article was written.
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... n-transair
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