Air France In-Flight Squabble

[FD2]

Fight or flight? Airline pilots are suspended amid claims they traded blows in cockpit brawl

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... brawl.html

The Air France flight, an Airbus A320, was going from Geneva to Paris in June
Cabin crew were forced to break up the brawl, which a spokesman condemned
The row was resolved but a spokesman said the pilots are under investigation

Two Air France pilots have been suspended after coming to blows in a cockpit fracas.

The fight between the pilot and co-pilot broke out shortly after the Airbus A320 took off on a flight between Geneva and Paris in June.

Cabin crew were forced to break up the brawl, with one pilot remaining on the flight deck for the rest of the 75 minute journey.

A spokesman for the airline described the confrontation as ‘totally inappropriate behaviour’.

Was it over the choice of wine with lunch or a rejected proposition, peut etre?

We've all felt that way from time to time but...

[PHXPhlyer]

Fight or flight? Airline pilots are suspended amid claims they traded blows in cockpit brawl
The Air France flight, an Airbus A320, was going from Geneva to Paris in June
Cabin crew were forced to break up the brawl, which a spokesman condemned
The row was resolved but a spokesman said the pilots are under investigation

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... brawl.html

Two Air France pilots have been suspended after coming to blows in a cockpit fracas.

The fight between the pilot and co-pilot broke out shortly after the Airbus A320 took off on a flight between Geneva and Paris in June.

Cabin crew were forced to break up the brawl, with one pilot remaining on the flight deck for the rest of the 75 minute journey.

A spokesman for the airline described the confrontation as ‘totally inappropriate behaviour’.

Two Air France pilots have been suspended after coming to blows in a cockpit fracas and the fight between the pilot and co-pilot broke out shortly after the Airbus A320 took off

The row was resolved and the flight continued as normal , the spokesman said. The pilots are under investigation.

Details of the fight emerged days after the publication of a report by France’s civil aviation authority which found some of Air France’s 4,000 pilots ‘adopted a culture of underestimating the importance of strictly applying safety procedures’.

I don't think that flying a transport category airliner with only one pilot on the flight deck would be categorized as normal.

PP

[G-CPTN]

I read an earlier report (which I cannot now identify).
AIUI, the cabin crew 'supervised' the pilots and made sure that they didn't continue to fight.
I believe that the comment about a pilot remaining on the flight deck applied to the 'crew member' (who may have been a pilot rather than cabin crew . . .)

[FD2]

Junior journalists as usual. Guaranteed to get it confused or only partially right.

[TheGreenAnger]

So the the M in CRM actually stands for martial. Not a good look for Air France and does make me wonder whether I would want to risk my pink little body as SFL on their aircraft!

[llondel]

So the the M in CRM actually stands for martial. Not a good look for Air France and does make me wonder whether I would want to risk my pink little body as SFL on their aircraft!

They've been on my no-fly list for a long time. This sort of thing just confirms it.

[reddo]

Ahh CRM. "Count the Rings, Mate" or "Captain's Right, Mate"
Nothing like a bit of percussive persuasion to sort things out.

[PHXPhlyer]

How does that translate into fFrench?

PP

[TheGreenAnger]

Ahh CRM. "Count the Rings, Mate" or "Captain's Right, Mate"
Nothing like a bit of percussive persuasion to sort things out.

reddo I like your style!

[reddo]

Well, I am a CRM instructor ;)

[FD2]

How does that translate into fFrench?

PP

Biff, Baff, Boff?

[PHXPhlyer]

Ahh CRM. "Count the Rings, Mate" or "Captain's Right, Mate"

I meant this part but I like your translation of the other.

PP

[FD2]

It's like 'droit du seigneur' but hopefully without sex in the cockpit?

It's just as well the cabin crew could get in to separate them, but how? There must be new systems in place since the German Wings chap landed a bit before his destination.

[TheGreenAnger]

Biffo in flight is more than one pilot can bear!

Biffo.JPG (81 KiB) Viewed 269 times

[Ex-Ascot]

OK how does CRM work when you have a Flt Lt Captain a Sqn Ldr F/O and your Wg Cdr boss as Nav? Very well actually we never had CRM in the Royal Air Force. The bloke (sorry Reddo) or gal in the left hand seat is always right but will take advice.

[Rwy in Sight]

If he is willing to take advice, he/she doesn't need CRM lecture training or whatever the term.

[TheGreenAnger]

OK how does CRM work when you have a Flt Lt Captain a Sqn Ldr F/O and your Wg Cdr boss as Nav? Very well actually we never had CRM in the Royal Air Force. The bloke (sorry Reddo) or gal in the left hand seat is always right but will take advice.

But will those down the seniority pecking order feel free to give it? This question brought to mind this accident where two ex-military pilots from a culture that did not respond favourably to the basic tenets of CRM, resulted in a big smoking hole in Essex. CRM, or the lack of it, was a big factor here!

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... L-7451.pdf

[Ex-Ascot]

But will those down the seniority pecking order feel free to give it? This question brought to mind this accident where two ex-military pilots from a culture that did not respond favourably to the basic tenets of CRM, resulted in a big smoking hole in Essex. CRM, or the lack of it, was a big factor here!

Yes actually. Having also worked as an airline pilot I think that the Royal Air Force is far more professional in this respect. You were an officer first then aircrew second. We would always accept advice from juniors. The Flt Eng was a WO. If you didn't listen to him you were up the creek without a paddle. Or 30,000' without an engine.

[FD2]

CRM was really instigated to try and persuade the old and bold amongst us that not every dangerous situation could be handled by the P1 shouting and bellowing at the co-pilot. Certainly there are situations where very rapid and decisive action needs to be taken but the less immediate incidents, such as the Sioux City DC10 which is often quoted, benefited by the inputs of several 'extras'.

When the older generation amongst us went through training, all emergencies were handled in the 'power of command' manner and resulted in poor assessments if one didn't act in the approved manner. It wasn't easy to get out of that habit! Now, hopefully, in a developing 'situation' the co-pilot or others might be empowered to contribute to a successful outcome without being bollocked for his or her insolence!

Without being 'racist' though, the French can be an excitable bunch at times.

[TheGreenAnger]

But will those down the seniority pecking order feel free to give it? This question brought to mind this accident where two ex-military pilots from a culture that did not respond favourably to the basic tenets of CRM, resulted in a big smoking hole in Essex. CRM, or the lack of it, was a big factor here!

Yes actually. Having also worked as an airline pilot I think that the Royal Air Force is far more professional in this respect. You were an officer first then aircrew second. We would always accept advice from juniors. The Flt Eng was a WO. If you didn't listen to him you were up the creek without a paddle. Or 30,000' without an engine.

I have no doubt that now, a sensible RAF flying officer will listen to a subordinate, no matter how humble he/she is, when it comes to CRM. My example was really intended to point out that in some military cultures, where the Captain's word is paramount, that seniority gradient washes over into commercial flight, with some dubious results at times. The FO in the example above was so in awe of the Captain (an ex-senior officer in the South Korean Air Force), that he neglected to point out to the Sky God, that he was about to kill them all.

I assume in your response you intended to say you were aircrew first and an officer second, or maybe I have missed your point completely, I often hear that whooshing sound over my head these days!