B17 and Kingcobra Collide at Dallas Airshow

[FD2]

A very sad event:



https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... lying.html

I realise that views from a different perspective may tell a completely different story, but it looks as thought the P-63 had the B-17 in view as he/she approached from the port quarter.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Other videos show two other fighter types flying as well


I don't think I've ever seen such bad flying. I don't think the P-63 pilot even sees the bomber till the last second. I think that pilot is the #3 fighter, and is looking at the other two fighters for positioning, not the bomber.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

One would have to question who designed the display. The #2 and #3 fighters appear to need to look in two directions at once.
Was there supposed to be a height separation that somebody missed?
Was the bomber not supposed to be turning at all?

[FD2]

I wonder if they were supposed to be providing an 'escort' for the B17, intercepting it (very successfully), or just wazzing around with no particular plan rehearsed previously.

[PHXPhlyer]

Typical (mis)reporting by the Daily Mail.
"The larger plane slammed into the King Cobra at around 1.30pm Saturday, tearing it to shreds"
"Video posted online shows a Boeing B17 Flying Fortress bomber approaching the flight path of a Bell P-63 King Cobra. The bomber appears to fly by the P-63's blindspot and the planes collide, ripping each other to shreds. "

PP

[FD2]

I sometimes wonder how the people who write the photo captions and indeed some of the 'journalists' at the Mail are allowed out on their own.

[TheGreenAnger]

Really sorry to see this.

Looks like the Airacobra pilot was completely unsighted. It seems that the 2 pilots in the B-17 were two ex-American Airlines pilots. The fact that possibly 5 people were killed in the B-17, begs the question whether or not this aircraft was carrying passengers and if this accident occurred during a formal part of the display?




If part of a formal display, then this poster seems to be on the right track.

Jon Cox- Juan, having flown in many CAF Airshows, ALL aircraft are assigned circuits based on the performance. Trainers, fighters, bombers. "IMHO" Look like the P-63 was WAY to the right of the other fighters in the circuit. He was banked left and probably looking left towards the other fighters trying get BACK where he was suppose to be and simply plowed right through the B-17! Generally, when you are banked "Left" you are looking to your left or which ever way your banking to turn, that's where you are looking!

The Allied Pilots Association, the American Airlines pilots’ union, said on Twitter that two of its former members, Terry Barker and Len Root, were on board the B-17 and had died.

The Allied Pilots Association, the American Airlines pilots’ union, said on Twitter that two of its former members, Terry Barker and Len Root, were on board the B-17 and had died.

Authorities have not confirmed any deaths.

There were no reports of injuries on the ground, but Dallas Mayor Eric Johnson said the collision's debris field includes parts of Executive Airport grounds, Highway 67, and a nearby strip mall.

Hank Coates, CEO and president of Commemorative Air Force, the organization behind the show, said a total of six people could have been on the two aircraft.

The B-17 would normally have a crew of four or five, and the Kingcobra would just have a pilot, Coates said at a news conference Saturday evening.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/tw ... -rcna56920

So 5 was a normal compliment in the B-17 it seems.

[TheGreenAnger]

One frontal shot gives some perspective on the ragged formation just prior to impact.

Dallas.JPG (18.97 KiB) Viewed 601 times

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Useful picture, thanks.
That is not a formation.
I think FD2 may be right - that looks like wazzing around to me.
The only way I can see any possible organisation to that is if the first three fighters are supposed to be simulating attack runs on the front bomber, but the third fighter misidents the second bomber as the first, thinks he is well clear forward and is just watching the second fighter, then runs unsighted into the first bomber that, in his brain, isn't there.
My reasoning is that the flight path the first fighter flew on the front bomber seems to match the flight path the third fighter is flying on the second bomber.
It also looks like fighters 4 and 5 are doing simulated attack runs on the second bomber.
The potential for misident by the middle, third, fighter, is obvious with this setup.

I say bomber - the second large aircraft may be a Catalina or similar.

[tango15]

As one who has attended more air displays, usually in a working capacity, than I care to remember, the whole thing seems rather chaotic to me. Were they trying to simulate some sort of battle group? I read elsewhere that there is little or no ATC involved in this, which if true, seems like a recipe for disaster. A further thought occurred to me; if this airfield is set up for exec jet operations, what sort of fire cover do they have for events like this? (I fully appreciate that it would have been of little use in preventing the deaths of those involved in the accident, but equally, I see no red (or yellow) vehicles rushing towards the burning wreckage).

This will doubtless be held up by some as a reason to ban this sort of thing, and I can see that ban drawing closer and closer.

[PHXPhlyer]

Here's the video of TGA's screen grab.

https://www.12news.com/article/news/loc ... 1874c52bea



PP

[TheGreenAnger]

The P-63 had strayed well right of the line of aircraft on the left and was literally descending straight into the B-17 as it turned left, presumably having lost perspective on where the Boeing was. I suspect that Fox maybe onto something when he suggested a simulated attack that went badly wrong.

As had been noted by others, the formation, if one can call it that, was pretty shambolic sadly.

Correction: KingCobra as opposed to Airacobra as I erroneously wrote in an ealier post.

[4mastacker]

.....
I say bomber - the second large aircraft may be a Catalina or similar.

B-24 Liberator?

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

It may well be.
I've just checked, the outfit at Dallas does have one of the two airworthy Liberators, and also two Catalinas, normally based in Wisconsin.

[TheGreenAnger]

By now you have probably heard about the midair collision between a Bell P-63 Kingcobra and the B-17 Texas Raiders that took place the afternoon of November 12, 2022, during the Wings Over Dallas Airshow.

The event, a product of the Commemorative Air Force, was something so many people looked forward to—including me, as the week prior to the event I had written stories mentioning aircraft slated to be at the show, namely the P-51 Tuskegee Airmen and Texas Raiders. I was looking forward to watching the video of the event—and I did see lots of video—just not what I wanted to see.

I was home in Seattle when the news of the accident reached me, just moments after the accident, as it turned out. It is never easy to hear of a loss like this. I have seen accidents at airshows, but this one, with the video image of the Bell P-63 Kingcobra slicing into the Boeing B-17 just aft of the radio compartment, will be with me for a long time, as will the frantic cries of a child who just witnessed the accident, asking “Was that supposed to happen? Was that supposed to happen?”

No. No, it wasn’t.

Fallout
Almost immediately, social media erupted in discussions about the wisdom of allowing such rare aircraft to fly because accidents happen. We saw this in 2011 when the B-17 Liberty Belle, 44-85734, experienced an inflight fire in Aurora, Illinois, which led to an unscheduled off-airport landing in an agricultural field. Because of the skill of the crew, there was no loss of life during the landing, and the fire was small enough that the crew had the time to unload the aircraft. There are those who were there that day who stated that the fire would have probably been extinguished quickly had the fire department been able to access Liberty Belle; however, the fire department determined the field was too soft due to recent rains to permit the trucks to get to the aircraft. They watched from the road as the airplane burned.

A week or so earlier, Liberty Belle was in Seattle at King County International Airport/Boeing Field (KBFI). I took a few of my learners to see the airplane on static display. How I wished I’d had the $1,000 to get us all aboard for a flight. When the crew members acting as docents found out we were pilots they let us into the coveted cockpit to take a closer look. Now, in 2022, I am happy to report that Liberty Belle is being rebuilt. It is a story I plan to keep following.

The Loss of Nine-O-Nine
The cry to ground the remaining airworthy B-17s reached a crescendo on October 2, 2019, when the Collings Foundation B-17G, 44-83575, Nine-O-Nine was destroyed in a landing accident at Bradley International Airport (KBDL), Windsor Locks, Connecticut. There were 13 people on board, seven of whom perished. According to the NTSB report, the aircraft experienced an uncommanded loss of engine power inflight. The crash occurred when the aircraft was unable to maintain altitude during the approach to landing and there was a loss of directional control following a loss of thrust on one side of the aircraft.

My familiarity with the crew and the airplane made the reading of the NTSB report especially painful. I had made several flights on that aircraft and I knew the pilot, 75-year-old Capt. Ernest “Mac” McCauley. The last time I saw Mac was when the tour was at Tacoma Narrows Airport (KTIW), and I brought two of my learners to see the aircraft. Mac greeted me and demanded to know when I was going to join the crew for the tour. He knew I had been supplied with the binders filled with aircraft information that was issued during the ground school. I explained I was never in a financial position to take the time off work.

Keep ‘Em Flying or Keep Them Grounded?
The motto of the Commemorative Air Force is “to educate, inspire, and honor,” and there are those who say this is best done by flying these magnificent machines—yet one of the arguments for the grounding of the B-17s is that they are too rare to risk losing. Of the 12,731 B-17s built, approximately 45 are left today, and most of them on static display, such as Memphis Belle at the Air Force Museum in Dayton, Ohio, and the Boeing Bee in Seattle at the Museum of Flight.

I have mixed feelings on the grounding of the aircraft. I understand that because they are so rare, keeping them on static display protects them in a sense more so than when they are flying —so that future generations will be able to see and learn about them. However, at

he same time, I cannot shake the idea that airplanes are made to fly, and an aircraft on display is akin to a vinyl record on display—like a first edition Beatles LP that you can look at, but not listen too. FLYING Editor-in-Chief Julie Boatman advocates to keep them flying, saying “You can always build a non-flying restoration from a data plate. As long as we have airworthy ones, they should take to the sky.”

Because She Was My First
Loss of life and emotional trauma notwithstanding, I think part of the reason this accident hurts so much is because Texas Raiders B-17G-95-DL, 44-83872, was the first B-17 I ever got close to. It was the early 1990s, and I was a general assignment reporter for a television station in Medford, Oregon. I was on-call 24/7. I had a station-issued car and equipment that went everywhere with me. I was also a student pilot, and for reasons I am still not quite clear on, my employers didn’t like the fact that I was learning to fly. One boss told me if I was in the air, they wouldn’t be able to reach me if a story broke. Another boss was afraid of airplanes, and they were sure I was going to crash. Despite this, I flew every chance I could.

I flew out of Grants Pass Airport (3S8) in a rented Cessna 150. It was an August afternoon as I was practicing steep turns in the practice area when I saw the green four engine bomber—Texas Raiders—approaching from the East. It was fire season, and I knew that some World War II aircraft had been configured as water bombers. Was that one of them? Then the aircraft turned and I realized this airplane was wearing World War II markings.

“That looks like a World War II B-17,” I thought as I turned to head back to the nontowered airport I called home. I muttered this observation at least three more times as I followed the aircraft into the pattern. I landed, parked, and rushed over to the airplane now taking up the entire transient area on the ramp in front of the FBO. I stood under the nose, looking up at the impressive machine. “It IS a B-17!” I said to myself as three men wearing tan flight suits were having a very animated conversation with the airport manager. I learned they had been scheduled to be parked at Medford Airport (KMFR) but there was some sort of issue—they wouldn’t be allowed to conduct ramp tours and they were told to leave. They came to Grants Pass because they were low on fuel, and this was the only airport with a long enough runway to allow a safe full-fuel takeoff.

According to “Rob,” a member of the crew whose last name I regret I can’t remember, they were from the Confederate Air Force—the name was later changed to the Commemorative Air Force—and they were going to lose a lot of money because of this diversion. The organization relies on donations and volunteers to make it work. Rob, who worked at a CBS broadcast affiliate in Texas was very upset because no one knew Texas Raiders was there, ergo no visitors, no donations.

“I can fix that,” I said, and ran to my car. I came back with my camera gear. I did the interview on the spot and shot the B-roll. Rob allowed me to go into the cockpit to get video—and also because I was a pilot and, in his words, had respect for aviation. I rushed back to the TV station and put the story together. It aired on the 6 p.m. and 11 p.m. shows. The next morning, I was there for the Texas Raiders departure—and so were hundreds of other people. Apparently, people saw the story on TV and went to the airport. The donation jug had more money in it now. As a token of appreciation, Rob gave me a scrap from the hem of his B-3 shearling flight jacket as a souvenir.

Some 10 years later, I was an aviation journalist and commercial pilot when I saw Texas Raiders on display at EAA AirVenture. Rob was still in the group. He recognized me, and we had a reunion. I told him I had been on several other B-17s since that day in southern Oregon, but Texas Raiders will always be my favorite because it was my first. And by the way, Rob—I still have that scrap of jacket.

https://www.flyingmag.com/remembering-texas-raiders

[TheGreenAnger]

Of course B-17's etc. should be flown, just with extra care and respect methinks within the context of good operational guidelines and risk assessments etc

[TheGreenAnger]

As a supporter of the CAF, I received the following e-mail from them this morning.

Dear CAF Supporters,

Today I have the sad task of sharing the names of those who went west at the CAF Wings Over Dallas WWII Airshow on Saturday, November 12, 2022.

In this email, you will find the names of the crewmen, ways to support the families, and resources available for families and friends. We appreciate the incredible support and condolences pouring in and are relaying your messages to all impacted by this tragic event.

Sincerely,

Hank Coates
CAF President/CEO

Ways to Support the Families


The International Council of Air Shows (ICAS) Foundation*, in association with the CAF, is accepting donations for the families of those involved in the accident. To donate, please go to https://airshowfoundation.org/support/, select “Donation in honor or memory of an individual” and type “CAF” as the “Name of Memorialized”. 100% of the money collected through this effort will be provided to the families as emergency funding, with all received funds being split equally amongst those families impacted.

*The ICAS Foundation is a 501(c)(3) charitable organization and follows all IRS guidelines. Although most donations made to the ICAS Foundation are tax deductible, please consult your tax adviser to confirm the deductibility of your contribution. EIN: 38-2885409

[TheGreenAnger]

[TheGreenAnger]

Gives us the display plan.



ADS-B data tells us a story.

Juan Browne (blancoilirio)

DallasDisplay1.JPG (44.91 KiB) Viewed 272 times

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Unfortunately this analysis is unable to answer the three questions I asked earlier
1) was there an altitude separation
2) were the fighters assigned to particular bombers
3) was there a plan to avoid having the trail fighters needing to look in two directions at once.

From the analysis, it would on first look seem that the answer to all three questions is No.

And this is not just on the display organiser. All of the display pilots should have been aware of the need for at least two of these points to be addressed.