If former forum member hawkerj96 is still visiting, please contact admin as we have a new member who wishes to contact you about John Hawke

Runway Incursion at JFK

Message
Author
TheGreenAnger
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 3286
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2022 11:40 pm
Location: Unfashionable end of the Western Spiral

Re: Runway Incursion at JFK

#21 Post by TheGreenAnger » Sun Jan 22, 2023 12:10 pm

These blokes could have done with some help, divine, tower, electronic or ocular based!

https://www.baaa-acro.com/crash/ground- ... hannesburg

My necessaries are embark'd: farewell. Adieu! I have too grieved a heart to take a tedious leave.

PHXPhlyer
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 8169
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:56 pm
Location: PHX
Gender:
Age: 69

Re: Runway Incursion at JFK

#22 Post by PHXPhlyer » Sun Jan 22, 2023 5:13 pm

Boac wrote:
Sun Jan 22, 2023 8:34 am
confused of Lesser Antipode wrote:Why do you need to "programme" a taxy-route
You don't. It is normally copied down.
Paper charts are a thing of the past. [-X
Most airlines issue pilots tablets (IPad in my case) which have all the necessary charts with moving map capability and also allow the taxi chart, for example, to be marked with the assigned taxi routing and any hold short instruction as well.
The tablets have every manual as well as performance, deice, hazmat, wx, etc. :YMAPPLAUSE:
The flight attendants' tablets have all of their manuals as well as equipment locations for each aircraft as the are capable of working any aircraft in the fleet unlike pilots. Their tablets also include pax manifest, special requests for meals or other needs, as well as the capability to process credit cards for buy onboard items like food or drink. All cashless now.
Replacing four Jepp binders and a stack of low and high IFR charts with an IPad was probably the most appreciated change ever. :-bd Not having to spend the first long leg of a trip doing revisions was replaced by connecting to the secure wifi and having everything automatically updated as well as being able to check-in for your trip without having to go to the dedicated check-in computers in the pilot lounge saved up to a half hour of wasted time just to start a trip.

PP

Boac
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17184
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2015 5:12 pm
Location: Here

Re: Runway Incursion at JFK

#23 Post by Boac » Sun Jan 22, 2023 5:27 pm

Are you saying that AAL would have had a tablet in their cockpit which they would have programmed (as an SOP) with their cleared taxi route, which would be shown on the tablet, and their progress followed on the tablet on the route? That makes this 10 times worse! Totally incompetent.

How does the tablet 'follow' their progress? Does it require a valid GPS signal? If so, how does that work in the cockpit.

(PS I am familiar with an EFB and I didn't mention 'paper charts'!)

User avatar
Mrs Ex-Ascot
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 4579
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2015 7:18 am
Location: Botswana but sometimes Greece
Age: 59

Re: Runway Incursion at JFK

#24 Post by Mrs Ex-Ascot » Sun Jan 22, 2023 5:47 pm

I still don't understand how with 3 sets of eye balls on the flight deck not one of the pilots saw the red stop lights on the active runway. One of the articles/links above (sorry can't remember which) implied that only the overworked first officer could see them(and was not looking out at the time due to workload) and the captain and 3rd pilot could not see them. Why not? What was obstructing their view?. :-\ And as the Captain seems to be the person in control at the time...... [-(
RAF 32 Sqn B Flt ; Twin Squirrels.

PHXPhlyer
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 8169
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:56 pm
Location: PHX
Gender:
Age: 69

Re: Runway Incursion at JFK

#25 Post by PHXPhlyer » Sun Jan 22, 2023 6:00 pm

Not saying that the route could be "programed" on the tablet, just that there is capability for one to use a finger or stylus to mark the route on the airport diagram.
The function is an option not SOP.

PP

TheGreenAnger
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 3286
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2022 11:40 pm
Location: Unfashionable end of the Western Spiral

Re: Runway Incursion at JFK

#26 Post by TheGreenAnger » Sun Jan 22, 2023 7:12 pm

Even the spam can pilot has the facility to be sure where his rubber band and prop are headed on an airfield diagram.

SkyDemon has this functionality at a basic level. Personally I believe a pilot should be looking out and not staring at screen when he is on the ground but a quick glance for reference is always useful. For serious flying in Europe Foreflight is very good and gives you the kind of facilities that even a Sky God would swoon over. =))

My necessaries are embark'd: farewell. Adieu! I have too grieved a heart to take a tedious leave.

Boac
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17184
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2015 5:12 pm
Location: Here

Re: Runway Incursion at JFK

#27 Post by Boac » Sun Jan 22, 2023 7:47 pm

PHX - OK, so we don't know! I thought that was your answer to ExSp33db1rd. I had hoped for some insight into AAL procedures? I suspect this crew would have copied it somewhere and then ignored it................

TGA - the problem is the 'Faraday's cage' of a modern airliner cockpit. I tried many times to get a GPS signal when I was operating (737) and it was extremely unreliable.

TheGreenAnger
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 3286
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2022 11:40 pm
Location: Unfashionable end of the Western Spiral

Re: Runway Incursion at JFK

#28 Post by TheGreenAnger » Sun Jan 22, 2023 7:56 pm

Boac wrote:
Sun Jan 22, 2023 7:47 pm
TGA - the problem is the 'Faraday's cage' of a modern airliner cockpit. I tried many times to get a GPS signal when I was operating (737) and it was extremely unreliable.
Were you using an unofficial handheld GPS device or were you using the GPS integrated with the 737's FMC and the aircraft's internal sensors and antenna.?

In my spam can I attach the GPS antenna (GARMIN GLO) to the windshield and connect the GPS to the handheld to avoid the Faraday effect. Haven't had any issues that way.
My necessaries are embark'd: farewell. Adieu! I have too grieved a heart to take a tedious leave.

Boac
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17184
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2015 5:12 pm
Location: Here

Re: Runway Incursion at JFK

#29 Post by Boac » Sun Jan 22, 2023 10:05 pm

No access to FMC. My own (old) HP handheld machine.

Anyway, forget EFBs and other 'tech'. The Captain steered the aircraft on the wrong taxyway. The rest of the crew did not pick it up. What I do not understand as well is why they continued the flight. Did they depart from 31 or manage to find their way to 04?

PHX - any update on AAL SOPs?

User avatar
ExSp33db1rd
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 3223
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2015 1:51 am
Location: Lesser Antipode
Gender:
Age: 89

Re: Runway Incursion at JFK

#30 Post by ExSp33db1rd » Mon Jan 23, 2023 5:34 am

I wasn't suggesting that an aerodrome "chart" shown on an iPad is any worse than a paper page of yesteryore, but I thought I'd read ( maybe misread ? ) a comment about programming an FMS for the taxi route to the duty runway, which is crazy. There doesn't seem to have been any doubt about how to get to their designated runway, just lack of attention to other traffic, and possibly red lights ?

In my heyday I could probably have taxied around JFK and LHR with my eyes shut, as AAL probably thought that they could, but CDG was a different story ! First time there were three of us, plus a F/Eng. trying very hard and couldn't work out how to get from the inorrect turn we had made to our designated gate ! I can understand the ill fated Concorde not wanting to re-position to the other end of the runway, apart from the other considerations on that day, even if they might have been "locals" ?

Seems strange that one aircraft was using 31 and the other 04, can't ever remember JFK using two "duty" runways of differing vectors, other then L or R in the same direction.

User avatar
Mrs Ex-Ascot
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 4579
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2015 7:18 am
Location: Botswana but sometimes Greece
Age: 59

Re: Runway Incursion at JFK

#31 Post by Mrs Ex-Ascot » Mon Jan 23, 2023 7:33 am

Boac wrote:
Sun Jan 22, 2023 10:05 pm


Anyway, forget EFBs and other 'tech'. The Captain steered the aircraft on the wrong taxyway. The rest of the crew did not pick it up. What I do not understand as well is why they continued the flight. Did they depart from 31 or manage to find their way to 04?

I was wondering the same thing. Also, wondering whether any of them realised they were in the wrong place when they arrived at the threshold of 31.
RAF 32 Sqn B Flt ; Twin Squirrels.

TheGreenAnger
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 3286
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2022 11:40 pm
Location: Unfashionable end of the Western Spiral

Re: Runway Incursion at JFK

#32 Post by TheGreenAnger » Mon Jan 23, 2023 7:37 am

I suspect that ExSp33db1rd is right, he generally is, about this being a case of familiarity breeding contempt. They sat fat, dumb and happy and made a mistake.
My necessaries are embark'd: farewell. Adieu! I have too grieved a heart to take a tedious leave.

Boac
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17184
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2015 5:12 pm
Location: Here

Re: Runway Incursion at JFK

#33 Post by Boac » Mon Jan 23, 2023 8:39 am

ExSP wrote:maybe misread ?
If it was my post, then yes, misread. It referred to programming the FMC with the departure route (?or two?).
There doesn't seem to have been any doubt about how to get to their designated runway,
It is just that their 'designated' runway was not the one they went to......................!!

I understand JFK do use 31 and 04 together on occasions. As I said earlier, it would be illuminating to know what departure had been briefed and loaded.

User avatar
Woody
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 10231
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2015 6:33 pm
Location: Sir Kenny Dalglish Stand
Age: 59

Re: Runway Incursion at JFK

#34 Post by Woody » Mon Jan 23, 2023 8:48 am

Slightly off topic, but this morning had an arrival that was marshalled onto stand by two marshals, as the flight deck couldn’t see the parking system at HOS because of fog :-o
When all else fails, read the instructions.

Boac
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17184
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2015 5:12 pm
Location: Here

Re: Runway Incursion at JFK

#35 Post by Boac » Mon Jan 23, 2023 9:01 am

Wot!? No red flag people available? That is thick fog!

User avatar
Woody
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 10231
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2015 6:33 pm
Location: Sir Kenny Dalglish Stand
Age: 59

Re: Runway Incursion at JFK

#36 Post by Woody » Mon Jan 23, 2023 9:20 am

Image

T5C from T5B this morning :((
When all else fails, read the instructions.

Boac
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17184
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2015 5:12 pm
Location: Here

Re: Runway Incursion at JFK

#37 Post by Boac » Mon Jan 23, 2023 10:24 am

Back at JFK, the more I read the more I see what the 'experts' call 'confirmation bias' (we used to call it 'lack of attention' B-) ) and I wouldn't mind betting they had planned and briefed a 31 departure and hadn't 'noticed' the clearance was for 04? Hopefully it will all come out in the wash.

PHXPhlyer
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 8169
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:56 pm
Location: PHX
Gender:
Age: 69

Re: Runway Incursion at JFK

#38 Post by PHXPhlyer » Mon Jan 23, 2023 2:47 pm

Boac wrote:
Mon Jan 23, 2023 10:24 am
Back at JFK, the more I read the more I see what the 'experts' call 'confirmation bias' (we used to call it 'lack of attention' B-) ) and I wouldn't mind betting they had planned and briefed a 31 departure and hadn't 'noticed' the clearance was for 04? Hopefully it will all come out in the wash.
The only problem with an assumption of using 31L for departure is the fact that 31L full length is rarely used. Normally an intersection take-off from KD intersection would be more likely.
Either way they screwed up and the holes in the cheese almost lined up completely.

PP

User avatar
llondel
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 5881
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:17 am
Location: San Jose

Re: Runway Incursion at JFK

#39 Post by llondel » Mon Jan 23, 2023 5:13 pm

One thing did occur to me - the reports are that ATC was somewhat profane and agitated when he told the Delta flight to stop. I'm guessing that might have added to the urgency on their part and helped prevent it all from going pear-shaped.

G-CPTN
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 7582
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:22 pm
Location: Tynedale
Gender:
Age: 79

Re: Runway Incursion at JFK

#40 Post by G-CPTN » Mon Jan 23, 2023 5:40 pm

"Say again . . . "

Post Reply