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Runway Incursion at JFK

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ExSp33db1rd
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Re: Runway Incursion at JFK

#41 Post by ExSp33db1rd » Tue Jan 24, 2023 12:17 am

........as the flight deck couldn’t see the parking system...........

Indian airport, not named to protect the innocent. New ( then ) self-parking system, I followed the lights indicating the centre line but couldn't see the stop guide. I asked the co-pilot if he could, and we both then realised that it was at right angles to the approach, invisible to the left hand seat, and required the right hand seat pilot to call out the distance to go, and ..... Christ ! we've passed it. Heavy braking ( Remain seated until we have come to a complete stop and the seat belts are switched off, remember that ? ) and we fortunately stopped just before driving an engine into the airbridge.

First on the flight deck a heavily turbanned, head waggling, local, who looked out of the windows and said " The lights are on, it wasn't our fault " . No, I replied, but there were half a dozen of you down there, couldn't someone have at least waved their hands at us to try to stop us. ? No, he answered, the ground servicing personnel aren't trained aircraft marshellers. So ... they would rather I'd damaged their airbridge and our aeroplane ? Just another day at the office.

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Re: Runway Incursion at JFK

#42 Post by Woody » Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:01 am

the flight deck couldn’t see the parking system at HOS because of fog :-o
Actually it’s the other way around, the parking system couldn’t recognise the aircraft due to the fog :-o
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Re: Runway Incursion at JFK

#43 Post by Dushan » Thu Jan 26, 2023 9:21 pm

ExSp33db1rd wrote:
Mon Jan 23, 2023 5:34 am

Seems strange that one aircraft was using 31 and the other 04, can't ever remember JFK using two "duty" runways of differing vectors, other then L or R in the same direction.
Apparently they were using 31 in a shortened configuration, to the left of 04.
Because they stand on the wall and say "nothing's gonna hurt you tonight, not on my watch".

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Re: Runway Incursion at JFK

#44 Post by ExSp33db1rd » Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:07 pm

Once cleared for a visual approach to JFK 22 L, number 2 to Clipper XXX ( Pan Am ), "Do you have the Clipper in sight". Affirmative, and so we followed Pan Am waiting for him to make a left turn on to short finals, but ..... they went past the point of turn, continuing straight ahead, so I asked for clearance to turn and landing clearance, which was granted, then ATC asked the Clipper if he had the airfield in sight .... " Er, er, were still looking !" Won one !

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Re: Runway Incursion at JFK

#45 Post by Ex-Ascot » Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:51 am

ExSp33db1rd wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:07 pm
Once cleared for a visual approach to JFK 22 L, number 2 to Clipper XXX ( Pan Am ), "Do you have the Clipper in sight". Affirmative, and so we followed Pan Am waiting for him to make a left turn on to short finals, but ..... they went past the point of turn, continuing straight ahead, so I asked for clearance to turn and landing clearance, which was granted, then ATC asked the Clipper if he had the airfield in sight .... " Er, er, were still looking !" Won one !
USofA ATC is/was useless. They would clear you to land when you were no. 2 on the approach. I was also cleared to land somewhere when a puddle jumper was lining up to take off. I purposely did a VERY low overshoot and hoped that I had blown him over. I didn't unfortunately but bet he needed a change of underwear. Come on, what is the first thing you do when cleared to take off. You look up the approach and see a heavy four jet on finals and still go onto the runway.
'Yes, Madam, I am drunk, but in the morning I shall be sober and you will still be ugly.' Sir Winston Churchill.

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Re: Runway Incursion at JFK

#46 Post by Ex-Ascot » Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:58 am

Ex-Ascot wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:51 am
ExSp33db1rd wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:07 pm
Once cleared for a visual approach to JFK 22 L, number 2 to Clipper XXX ( Pan Am ), "Do you have the Clipper in sight". Affirmative, and so we followed Pan Am waiting for him to make a left turn on to short finals, but ..... they went past the point of turn, continuing straight ahead, so I asked for clearance to turn and landing clearance, which was granted, then ATC asked the Clipper if he had the airfield in sight .... " Er, er, were still looking !" Won one !
USofA ATC is/was useless. They would clear you to land when you were no. 2 on the approach. I was also cleared to land somewhere when a puddle jumper was lining up to take off. I purposely did a VERY low overshoot and hoped that I had blown him over. I didn't unfortunately but bet he needed a change of underwear. Come on, what is the first thing you do when cleared to take off. You look up the approach and see a heavy four jet on finals and still go onto the runway. [-X
'Yes, Madam, I am drunk, but in the morning I shall be sober and you will still be ugly.' Sir Winston Churchill.

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Re: Runway Incursion at JFK

#47 Post by ExSp33db1rd » Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:04 am

..........You look up the approach and see a heavy four jet on finals and still go onto the runway.
Landing at Philadelphia, forecast light headwind on finals, crosswind midfield, and tailwind at the other end ! American Airlines taxying for take off, asked if ready for immediate take off and if so cleared, but do you have the landing aircraft in sight ? " American XXX ain't going anywhere, we're gonna to stop here and watch this 747 cope with these conditions "! We did.

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Re: Runway Incursion at JFK

#48 Post by Rwy in Sight » Sat Jan 28, 2023 8:58 am

Ex-Ascot wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:58 am
Ex-Ascot wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:51 am
ExSp33db1rd wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:07 pm
Once cleared for a visual approach to JFK 22 L, number 2 to Clipper XXX ( Pan Am ), "Do you have the Clipper in sight". Affirmative, and so we followed Pan Am waiting for him to make a left turn on to short finals, but ..... they went past the point of turn, continuing straight ahead, so I asked for clearance to turn and landing clearance, which was granted, then ATC asked the Clipper if he had the airfield in sight .... " Er, er, were still looking !" Won one !
USofA ATC is/was useless. They would clear you to land when you were no. 2 on the approach. I was also cleared to land somewhere when a puddle jumper was lining up to take off. I purposely did a VERY low overshoot and hoped that I had blown him over. I didn't unfortunately but bet he needed a change of underwear. Come on, what is the first thing you do when cleared to take off. You look up the approach and see a heavy four jet on finals and still go onto the runway. [-X
It reminds me the joke - "clear to take off and hope for a miracle"

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Re: Runway Incursion at JFK

#49 Post by PHXPhlyer » Sat Feb 11, 2023 2:39 am

NTSB subpoenas American Airlines flight crew in JFK runway incursion

https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/10/business ... index.html

The National Transportation Safety Board, which is investigating a near miss incident on the JFK runway last month, has issued a subpoena for the testimony of the American Airlines pilots involved.

“American Airlines cleared the flight crew’s schedule to ensure their availability; however, the flight crew refused to be interviewed on the basis that their statements would be audio recorded for transcription,” the NTSB preliminary report says. “As a result of the flight crew’s repeated unwillingness to proceed with a recorded interview, subpoenas for their testimony have been issued.”

The NTSB report says the American Airlines 777 crossed an active runway without clearance from air traffic control, causing a Delta 737 to abort its takeoff.

The report says the two aircraft came within 1,400 feet of each other.

Following the report, the NTSB issued a statement saying investigators “frequently use recording devices in interviews, particularly with those who had roles in operating the equipment involved in the accident or incident.”

The agency says it attempted to interview the American crew on three separate occasions and issued a subpoena Friday to the three crew members involved in the incident. They have seven days to respond, the NTSB says.

The statement notes that the airline itself has cooperated with the investigation.

Investigators have accepted written statements from the Delta crew and determined that they contain “sufficient information.”

As CNN has previously reported, the American Airlines flight continued on to London’s Heathrow airport. The flight voice recorders on both aircraft were overwritten, meaning investigators can’t hear what was said in the cockpit at the time of the incident.

The NTSB says the American crew, through their union, the Allied Pilots Association, would not consent to the interview.

“NTSB has determined that this investigation requires that the flight crew interviews be audio recorded and transcribed by a court reporter to ensure the highest degree of accuracy, completeness, and efficiency,” the report says.

The APA said in a statement that historically these interviews have not been recorded.

“We join in the goal of creating an accurate record of all interviews conducted in the course of an investigation,” the statement said. “However, we firmly believe the introduction of electronic recording devices into witness interviews is more likely to hinder the investigation process than it is to improve it. Not only may the recording of interviews lead to less candid responses from those witnesses who may choose to proceed under such requirements, but the existence and potential availability of interview recordings upon conclusion of an investigation will tend to lead many otherwise willing crew members to elect not to participate in interviews at all. Either outcome would not serve to advance the goal of conducting effective investigations in order to promote aviation safety.”

The union says the interviews should be “fact-finding” and not adversarial.

“We are confident that an acceptable solution to this issue exists that would satisfy the needs and concerns of all parties involved in these investigatory interviews,” the union wrote.

PP

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Re: Runway Incursion at JFK

#50 Post by PHXPhlyer » Tue Jan 30, 2024 3:49 am

Distraction and visibility played a part in near-collision between American and Delta flight at JFK airport, docs show

https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/29/us/jfk-a ... index.html


The pilots of an American Airlines flight were distracted by paperwork when they erroneously taxied into the path of a departing Delta flight, setting off alarms in the control tower at New York’s John F. Kennedy International Airport and prompting an urgent plea to “cancel takeoff clearance” from the air traffic controller.

“My hands are shaking, I’m in shock, like— what the f***, what just happened,” the controller credited with preventing a catastrophic collision told investigators after the incident.

The gripping new details of the close call the night of January 13, 2023 are contained in National Transportation Safety Board documents released Monday.

The case was the first in a series of serious near-collisions involving commercial and noncommercial flights on or near the runways of major US airports. In 2023, the NTSB started investigations of more than seven such cases, known formally as runway incursions. In the JFK incident, the NTSB says the two planes came within 1,400 feet of colliding.

In the cockpit of the American Airlines Boeing 777 — carrying 149 people bound for London — the crew reported being inundated with weather bulletins and paperwork issues, according to the just-released NTSB documents. There was a third pilot in the cockpit who was helping, so the captain decided against parking the aircraft while that last-minute work was underway.

The seasoned captain — with more than 20,000 hours of flight experience — told investigators that air traffic controllers revised their instructions and ordered the plane to depart from a different runway. But while taxing, he “started thinking about my original” instructions and mistakenly taxied the plane across JFK’s runway 4 Left.

He insisted to investigators he turned on extra lighting around the aircraft before entering the runway, something he typically did in dark conditions, a transcript of his interview shows.

The crew of the Delta Air Lines Boeing 737 — preparing to depart with 159 people onboard — did not even see the larger American plane crossing in front of its path. But the captain told investigators he heard the urgent instruction from air traffic controllers to abort the takeoff run.

“Due to the extreme darkness of the evening, it was not until we began decelerating that I saw the American Airlines 777 crossing the runway in front of us,” the Delta captain wrote in a statement.

When the American captain parked the plane on the other side of the runway and talked with air traffic controllers, he didn’t realize how close he had come to disaster.

“I still thought I was in the right, that somehow, you know, somebody else messed up,” the captain told NTSB investigators in a transcribed interview. “From where we were sitting looking back, it didn’t look like we were close to anybody at all. So I didn’t know there was anybody taking off on that runway.”

The NTSB interviewed four air traffic controllers in the tower cab the night of the incident. As automated collision warning alarms sounded in the tower, the tower supervisor shouted to the controller making radio transmissions to tell the Delta flight to “cancel takeoff clearance,” one controller told investigators.

“We had a really good team upstairs that night,” said the controller credited with making the fateful abort transmission, “a really good team.”

The crew of the American Airlines flight told investigators in separate interviews that lights warning them against crossing the runway did not turn on until after they entered the runway. CNN reported soon after the incident that airport employees went out to check the lights immediately after the incident and found them in working order.

When the lights turned on red, “we realized something wasn’t right,” the American flight’s first officer said in an interview.

The first officer told investigators while the captain taxied, she was busy handling an unusually large number of weather-related messages from company dispatchers, as well as a new procedure that required she make an announcement to passengers before takeoff.

“It was very unusual,” she said of the heavy volume of weather messages. “I had never seen that before.”

PP

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