Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

[Pontius Navigator]

At least his defence have not blamed hypoxia....

Yet

[Ex-Ascot]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... ining.html

Now claims he wasn't sufficiently trained on the aircraft and he was too short to reach the flap lever without leaning forward. The words 'straws' and 'clutching' come to mind. Still a pointless trial though. However it gives us some entertainment.

Edit, Nursie has just pointed out that surely when going through Biggin Hill he went through the anthropometry to see if he could reach all controls with the harness locked. Mind you we had a guy on my course at Sleaford Tech who got through that and then on JP training they found out that he couldn't. Poor chap got chopped of course.

[CharlieOneSix]

Mail Online

One of the permits for flying the aircraft states that it would not be allowed to take-off if the jet pipe temperature is too low, which Hill suggested he was not aware of when flying the plane and claimed he had not been advised of this in his training.

He also admits he hadn't read or understood the FRC's properly. This restriction must have been a prominent entry in the Limitations section in the Flight Manual and surely formed part of the pre-take off checks in the FRC's that were found on his person after the crash. Shot himself in the foot, I think.

[Ex-Ascot]

Mail Online

One of the permits for flying the aircraft states that it would not be allowed to take-off if the jet pipe temperature is too low, which Hill suggested he was not aware of when flying the plane and claimed he had not been advised of this in his training.

He also admits he hadn't read or understood the FRC's properly. This restriction must have been a prominent entry in the Limitations section in the Flight Manual and surely formed part of the pre-take off checks in the FRC's that were found on his person after the crash. Shot himself in the foot, I think.

Can't believe he said that. Sorry my Lord, thought I would scrub around the pre-take off checks that day. Must have missed that chapter in the Flight Manual, it looked boring.

[Pontius Navigator]

Now claims he wasn't sufficiently trained on the aircraft

And whose fault is that? AFAIK there is no simple pilot's conversion school. OJT and if you think you are not ready, you are not ready.

I know a pilot friend who told his Nav boss that he needed more time to regain currency after leave. He was denied extra time and, as predicted, landed in the understood damaging the aircraft. He was courts martialed for endangering his aircraft deliberately. He was found not guilty and posted to a more benign role.

Why did Hill persist in displaying this aircraft over such a long time but with so little stick time? As a high hours pilot one presumes he was experienced and knew his limits.

Did he have any Hunter time in the RAF?

[Ex-Ascot]

Did he have any Hunter time in the RAF?

I would not think so. The Hunter was out of service when he joined. Also as I mentioned before given his career progression with his last years on a simulator I think he PVR'd. Punishment posting. I would be surprised if he even has 1,000 hrs on fast jets.

As an aside I know of AVMs who have never made much more than 1,000 hours. Too busy brown nosing it to get to the top.

[Pontius Navigator]

Ex-Ascot, digressing:

Baron Craig of Radley, when OC 35, set out to get 1,000 hours in his tour. The normal flying rate for a Vulcan crew was 330 hours in year 1, 300 in year 2 and 270 if they completed a 3 year tour.

Craig would often fly 5 hours with his crew and then jump into another jet for a crew check. As an hours hog it cut his copilots hours. His crew were of course getting upwards of 300-400 per year and I think we're secretly pleased that Craig only got 990.

As stn cdr at Akrotiri he ensured he flew at least once with every crew. Not sure if he flew with the Herc and Lightning Sqns. Then of course Ken Hayr and John Allison flew as much as they could.

[Ex-Ascot]

Hillsborough match commander David Duckenfield was "basically a spectator" in the police control box on the day of the disaster, a court has heard.

Now has the defence considered this one. Andy was only there as a spectator. Worth a try.

[Boac]

I cannot remember when the Hunter ceased its role in training at RAF Valley - probably before Hill trained there but I think the Hunter ceased its RAF service at the TWU at RAF Brawdy in 1992. I suspect Hill could have had some Hunter time in the RAF depending on when he went through training.

[Ex-Ascot]

I cannot remember when the Hunter ceased its role in training at RAF Valley - probably before Hill trained there but I think the Hunter ceased its RAF service at the TWU at RAF Brawdy in 1992. I suspect Hill could have had some Hunter time in the RAF depending on when he went through training.

Boac are you sure it was used for flying training at TWU up until 1992? Wasn't it just being used for target towing then not training? I am sure that they were using the Hawk from the early 80s. Thus Andy would have no Royal Air Force time on it.

[Pontius Navigator]

Hunters were flown by No.63, No. 234 and No. 79 Squadrons acting in training roles for foreign and Commonwealth students. These remained in service until after the Hawk T.1 entered service in the mid-1970s.[48] Two-seat trainer versions of the Hunter, the T.7 and T.8, remained in use for training and secondary roles by the RAF and Royal Navy until the early 1990

Looks like a No then.

[Boac]

depending on when he went through training

Like I said - I don't know. I also don't know when he trained. I guess he would be about 22 then, possibly younger. Now 50 something. 30 years or so puts him 1990'ish.

However, not particularly important since the Hunter is an easy-to-fly, docile vice-less beast and not very challenging, so 'missing out' on it should not matter. Ultimately if you do not consider yourself 'competent' to operate it you should not go doing 'stunts' near people!

[om15]

Ultimately if you do not consider yourself 'competent' to operate it you should not go doing 'stunts' near people!

This is the point that I touched on in my earlier post, one of the factors of incidents is that individuals often fail to recognise their own limitations, particularly when stressed or tired. One of the reasons that working hour limitations have been incorporated into engineering planning is that people were working well outside limits and because of this were unable to exercise proper judgement including not registering their tiredness.

I wonder what criteria the CAA have on limiting or overseeing this type of operation, or is it a case of "Well he used to be in the RAF so he should be alright". Although the responsibility to determine ability is with the individual all organisations should have an independent oversight of training, competency and related health matters, the aircraft might of been 1950s era but the operation shouldn't have been, and if it was the CAA should be asked why they didn't pick up on this.

It may be as simple as recognising that old blokes shouldn't loop the loop.

[Ex-Ascot]

Thank you PN didn't know that. Yes agree with the dates and his age. No Royal Air Force time.

See an ex Red Arrow's pilot gave evidence against him yesterday. Even the judge stepped in and basically asked him if it was a cock up.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-sussex-47308293

Boac, interested in your comments about the use of flap in this maneuver. Was it to avoid a stall at his low speed at the top?

[Pontius Navigator]

Just read the link, what did the Judge say?

And on the defence witness, with friends like that . .

[Boac]

I think Cubes and I are on the same hymn sheet............

Difficult to 'judge' why he used flap. On the Gnat we flew all display manoeuvres with 1 stage of flap - it was stressed for that. For a Hunter, I do recall 300kts was a 'limit'. Using it at 400kts??????????

1 stage of flap would certainly improve available 'g' and enable more 'pull' at a lower speed around the loop. I was under the impression that one video showed flap down earlier, ie in the pull-up? Will have to check again.

[Ex-Ascot]

Just read the link, what did the Judge say?

And on the defence witness, with friends like that . .

J

Judge Andrew Edis interjected: "If it was a deliberate decision - rather than flying an escape manoeuvre, once he established he was too low - to use flap instead, that would be seriously substandard flying?"

"Yes absolutely," Mr Cubin replied.

[Pontius Navigator]

That is a pretty serious question and shows either an understanding if the evidence or as likely informed knowledge.

[CharlieOneSix]

.......1 stage of flap would certainly improve available 'g' and enable more 'pull' at a lower speed around the loop. I was under the impression that one video showed flap down earlier, ie in the pull-up? Will have to check again.

Here's a display of an F6 in Holland. He seems to use 1 stage flap at various points in the display. Stop the video at 1.13 as he's on the upwards part of a looping manoeuvre and it seems to me that he has a small amount of flap.

At 3.43 in a level steep turn he appears to be clean and then at 4.35 he appears to have a small amount of flap during a barrel roll.

[Ex-Ascot]

That is a pretty serious question and shows either an understanding if the evidence or as likely informed knowledge.

Well this is the chap. Seems cricket more than aviation. Any correlation between spin bowling and spinning an aircraft?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Edis