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Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

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Dushan
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Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

#1 Post by Dushan » Sat Aug 22, 2015 10:45 pm

Because they stand on the wall and say "nothing's gonna hurt you tonight, not on my watch".

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Re: Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

#2 Post by Tom Joad » Sat Aug 22, 2015 11:13 pm

It's a horrific accident. The latest news coming out is that the pilot is critical but they are expecting to find more bodies at the scene tonight. My thoughts and prayers to all involved.

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Re: Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

#3 Post by henry crun » Sun Aug 23, 2015 12:26 am

Very sad for all concerned. Airshows simply should not take place near populated areas. The safety rules are designed for remote airfields, not densely populated urban areas. The raf uses a safety waiver to allow its near-vintage fast jets to overfly the paying crowd, and it also uses the same waiver to overfly crowded urban areas at low level. We need serious attention to the whole safety issue.

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Re: Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

#4 Post by Alisoncc » Sun Aug 23, 2015 2:17 am

Just saw it on the news. Pretty horrific crash and the pilot survived. Not so lucky seven people in cars on the road were killed, and quite a few injured. The Hunter was one of my favourite aeroplanes from a long time ago. Sad.
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Re: Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

#5 Post by Ibbie » Sun Aug 23, 2015 8:47 am

Here is a link to Mail on Line. Quite a few graphic photos.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... rshow.html

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Re: Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

#6 Post by Tom Joad » Sun Aug 23, 2015 12:45 pm

henry crun wrote:Very sad for all concerned. Airshows simply should not take place near populated areas. The safety rules are designed for remote airfields, not densely populated urban areas. The raf uses a safety waiver to allow its near-vintage fast jets to overfly the paying crowd, and it also uses the same waiver to overfly crowded urban areas at low level. We need serious attention to the whole safety issue.


Agreed, I would imagine that a review of airshow safety case will follow once the dust settles here. I used to be involved with assessing RAF airshows and here we had moved to quite a rigorous assessment with a heavy stress on computational risk. It's always going to be a balance though and a conflict will always exist between making an Airshow enjoyable (that itself involves risk of course) while safe for the viewing public. Constraints on overflying and minimum distance to the crowd line have gone a long way to improving safety though.

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Re: Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

#7 Post by henry crun » Sun Aug 23, 2015 1:21 pm

I've no objection to a small amount of risk to paying spectators, they know that certain events are dangerous. What concerns me is the risk to other members of the public who do not choose to take that risk and have not paid to receive a ticket saying it is dangerous.

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Re: Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

#8 Post by Capetonian » Sun Aug 23, 2015 2:19 pm

Sadly there was another fatac at an air show in Switzerland today, although the casualty was a participant.

I'm sorry to say that I'm with HC on this one, it's not fair to expose innocent passers-by to the very real dangers of this type of flying. I love air displays and would not wish to see them banned, but there need to be some controls.

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Re: Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

#9 Post by OFSO » Sun Aug 23, 2015 3:05 pm

I have only been to one air show in my life, and that was the one in July 1977 where Ormond Haydon-Baillie and a young student pilot lost their lives when OHB's Mustang crashed - I won't write "he crashed it" because the cause has never been defined, although here is some chat about his cockpit cover having become detached in flight.

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Re: Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

#10 Post by angels » Sun Aug 23, 2015 10:21 pm

Or perhaps keep them like Eastbourne where the fancy stuff is out to sea. Planes still approach from overland, but they're not doing the dangerous manoeuvres.
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Re: Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

#11 Post by stuart » Mon Aug 24, 2015 2:50 pm

Restrictions announced, kneejerk reaction ?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34044383
it's good to be bad.

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Re: Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

#12 Post by henry crun » Mon Aug 24, 2015 11:52 pm

One thing that puzzles me is that I have never known any aircraft to do a full loop starting at low level. The usual display manoeuvre is Cuban eights, where the aircraft flies to and fro doing half loops with a roll off the top. Is it possible to start at ground level and do a full loop in a Hunter?

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Re: Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

#13 Post by BokDrol » Tue Aug 25, 2015 2:52 am

"I have never known any aircraft to do a full loop starting at low level"

The latest rage with newer aircraft. Much more capeable.
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Re: Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

#14 Post by 500N » Tue Aug 25, 2015 4:57 am

BokDrol wrote:"I have never known any aircraft to do a full loop starting at low level"
The latest rage with newer aircraft. Much more capeable.


Unless you cock it up !

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Re: Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

#15 Post by probes » Tue Aug 25, 2015 6:30 am

What concerns me is the risk to other members of the public who do not choose to take that risk and have not paid to receive a ticket saying it is dangerous.


actually that's something I've never understood. Too bad people died, but one is never prepared for it. Or we should accept the risk every time we sit in a car or get out of the house. No, even that's not safe (staying in the house, I mean).

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Re: Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

#16 Post by probes » Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:46 pm

The Shoreham jet pilot was 'showing off' in his Hawker Hunter and crashed after a 'lunatic' manoeuvre, a former RAF aerobatics instructor claimed today.
Veteran pilot Leslie Hatcher, 71, also alleged that Andy Hill was wrong to be flying below 500ft, had too much fuel on board and 'should have been nowhere near' the A27 in West Sussex when he crashed.
Mr Hatcher is an award winning air display pilot who has flown the Hawker Hunter many times and was previously an aerobatics instructor at RAF training command.
He told The Times: 'The guy must have been a complete lunatic to come in at 100ft and think he could pull out of it (the loop) safely.
'This guy, I think simply he was just showing off. This sort of accident should never happen. Even if he had taken a bird strike in the engine, he would have been able to recover that (if he was flying above 500ft). You do not fly over crowds. You do not fly below 500ft.'
Mr Hatcher added that the display should never have been over land away from Shoreham airfield.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... 100ft.html
any point in that? OK, it's DWail, but the person is real?

P.S - actually Telegraph as well http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/aviatio ... atest.html

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Re: Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

#17 Post by BokDrol » Tue Aug 25, 2015 2:35 pm

I almost posted that photo, thought someone would get it. Thunderbird Pilot did screw up and of course was relieved of his postion after.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dohKKp0EvTs
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Re: Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

#18 Post by BokDrol » Tue Aug 25, 2015 2:39 pm

"The Shoreham jet pilot was 'showing off' in his Hawker Hunter and crashed after a 'lunatic' manoeuvre, a former RAF aerobatics instructor claimed today.
Veteran pilot Leslie Hatcher, 71,"
I am surprised not many others have jumped on this bandwagon and you know it will happen. But there is more than enough blame to go around. AIrshows near and area of civilian Population, and Im betting Pilot/Owners were allowed to pick and choose what they wanted to do without a panel of experts saying no. With the amount killed in this one you know this will not be over for many years. Im betting a Busload of Lwayers will be on scene daily.
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Re: Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

#19 Post by henry crun » Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:37 pm

So far as the safety of the public is concerned I think one must consider very carefully the different classes of spectating and non-spectating public.

1. At controlled displays where admission is charged.

(a) Paying spectators who receive a ticket warning them that air displays are dangerous.
(b) Non-paying spectators who watch from outside the controlled area.
(c) Members of the public who are simply going about their normal business.

2. Open displays where there is no charge for admission.

(a) Spectators who have come specifically to watch the displays.
(b) Holidaymakers for whom the display is a bonus.
(c) People who are going about their normal business.

The argument that all air displays are dangerous and the public must accept this can only be applied to controlled displays where people pay to go in, and only to those who have paid. It cannot be applied to people who are simply going about their daily business.

Likewise it cannot be applied to non-paying spectators who are not warned by a message on their tickets of the risks involved.

The safety rules set up after the Farnborough disaster are way out of date. The crowd line rule assumes that the display is on a remote airfield, which all too often is not the case. The ’crowd’ must be held to include all inhabitants of the surrounding area, so display aircraft should not overfly inhabited areas or major roads.

The ‘waiver’ granted to one aerobatic team which allows them to approach the crowd from the rear assumes that there is just one paying crowd. Where the display is held near a town they should not be permitted to use their waiver to overfly the town and put innocent people and property at risk.

In this incident the tragedy affected a small number of people and a small section of road. I hate to think how a mid-town crash might kill hundreds of people and take out a town shopping centre.

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Re: Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

#20 Post by probes » Wed Aug 26, 2015 7:14 am

Well, but it's an accident. Possibly preventable like road accidents (that are far more frequent), but accidents still happen, with or without a ticket?

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