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Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

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Re: Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

#401 Post by Boac » Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:00 pm

Fox - I have to disagree with you on 'the problem' as you put it. In something as crucial as pointing your arsehole at God at low-level it is necessary to KNOW the important bits - and stick to them.

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Re: Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

#402 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:41 pm

I'm not disputing he knew them. He also knew them for the JP. He recalled the wrong ones at the time. And stuck to them.

Hunter Apex - 4,000 ft, 150 kts
JP Apex - 2,800 ft, 110 kts
Actually flown - 2,800 ft, 105 kts.

And he was throttling back approaching the Apex. And the throttle is not reduced in the other Hunter loops presented in the Accident reports.
And what was his first display aircraft? JP

I wouldn't dream of arguing with your points, especially with your experience. However, my argument is that he recalled the wrong thing he knew, then stuck to it. So I don't think I'm disputing what you have said.
I think this is a reversion to original type, mostly likely reinforced by doing 4 JP loops the previous weekend. And both JP and Hunter have the same seating arrangements.
Reversion to original type is not at all an uncommon cause in accidents.

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Re: Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

#403 Post by Pontius Navigator » Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:48 pm

What of my point about military flying?

Whenever there is a crash near the typical vulnerable habitation there is the usual outcry which ignores trajectory. Will this judgement see fresh protests against low flying military jets?

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Re: Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

#404 Post by G-CPTN » Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:53 pm

Fox3WheresMyBanana wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:41 pm
He recalled the wrong ones at the time. And stuck to them.

Hunter Apex - 4,000 ft, 150 kts
JP Apex - 2,800 ft, 110 kts
Actually flown - 2,800 ft, 105 kts.
And what was his first display aircraft? JP
However, my argument is that he recalled the wrong thing he knew, then stuck to it. So I don't think I'm disputing what you have said.
I think this is a reversion to original type, mostly likely reinforced by doing 4 JP loops the previous weekend. And both JP and Hunter have the same seating arrangements.
Reversion to original type is not at all an uncommon cause in accidents.
I'm convinced . . .

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Re: Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

#405 Post by G-CPTN » Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:10 pm

Pontius Navigator wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:48 pm
What of my point about military flying?

Whenever there is a crash near the typical vulnerable habitation there is the usual outcry which ignores trajectory. Will this judgement see fresh protests against low flying military jets?
I live under a military low-flying-corridor.
On 9 January 1990 two RAF jets collided in mid-air directly over my house, and one crashed to earth.
The two-man crew from one aircraft, a Tornado ZA394 from RAF Laarbruch in West Germany, ejected to safety.
The other aircraft, a Jaguar XZ108, managed to stay in the air and safely divert to RAF Leeming in Yorkshire.
The pilot and navigator from the Tornado were both injured.
Wreckage from the crash fell onto a highway bridge on the A68, causing minor damage to the road surface and to both safety barriers.

I still support the low-flying activity - they have to practice somewhere . . .

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Re: Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

#406 Post by Boac » Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:33 pm

I think, at the end of all this, I view Hill exercised a lack of care in his manoeuvre and yes, I agree it LOOKS as if the JP gates were dominant in his mind. I personally view this as gross negligence.

I also hold the view that the direction of the judge should be reviewed. He effectively directed the jury to find Hill not guilty. I am not convinced that is correct.

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Re: Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

#407 Post by Cacophonix » Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:51 pm

Boac wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:33 pm
I think, at the end of all this, I view Hill exercised a lack of care in his manoeuvre and yes, I agree it LOOKS as if the JP gates were dominant in his mind. I personally view this as gross negligence.

I also hold the view that the direction of the judge should be reviewed. He effectively directed the jury to find Hill not guilty. I am not convinced that is correct.
Boac the judge behaved impeccably. Henceforth you shall be known as the hanging Sphinx! ;)))

Cao

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Re: Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

#408 Post by Boac » Fri Mar 08, 2019 5:08 pm

Is that like a Hanging Chad?

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Re: Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

#409 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Fri Mar 08, 2019 5:13 pm

Boac is well qualified to judge what is or is not Gross Negligence in display flying. However, the military, general aviation, and civil court ideas of Gross Negligence are not the same things. The same would apply to scientific, engineering, and other fields. There are specialist courts for complex financial fraud, but nothing else. I think everyone here is well aware that both judges and juries are increasingly unable to fathom what is going on in technical cases. This is not helped by the adversarial system of justice in English courts, where it is often not in either side's interests to have the full facts explored from a neutral viewpoint.

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Re: Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

#410 Post by om15 » Fri Mar 08, 2019 5:53 pm

Now cleared of manslaughter by gross negligence, he is free to walk from court and may soon be back in the cockpit.

"Frankly, I think he will probably have a very quiet life," Mr Bacon said. "He'll carry on flying in his spare time, but I doubt that he will go back to fast jet displays."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-47004138

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Re: Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

#411 Post by Cacophonix » Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:35 pm

Boac wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 5:08 pm
Is that like a Hanging Chad?
Another subject for the US Hamster wheel! ;)))

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Re: Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

#412 Post by Pontius Navigator » Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:02 pm

The Daily Wail has written a hatchet job on Hill about how transferred assets, sold things etc, made £30k in January all to avoid paying compensation.

No suggestion that it was a prudent move when he was charged. No suggestion that his legal team will have cost an arm and a leg.

Nice balanced article.

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Re: Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

#413 Post by Boac » Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:28 pm

Now the 'dust has settled' it will be interesting to follow the inquest and its finding, and whether any civil prosecutions will follow.

My view of the trial is that the prosecution missed too much.The defence team fastened on an almost gold-plated acquittal defence whilst there were several areas the prosecution could have pressed on. Another CPS misjudgement?

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Re: Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

#414 Post by Boac » Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:16 pm

Sadly, Mr Hill has decided to ask for the AAIB to 'reinvestigate' on the basis of his supposed 'cognative impairment' which will now delay the inquest findings further for the bereaved and injured.

I regret I have now lost all respect for a fellow colleague and aviator. In my opinion, Mr Hill, as always, you cocked it up and killed people. Take your 'punishment' like a man and stop wriggling.

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Re: Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

#415 Post by Ex-Ascot » Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:47 pm

Boac, this is advice from lawyers, to avoid private prosecution. Yes I agree it is upsetting for the families. It is not a case of taking the punishment, he was found not guilty. I am not saying that I agree with this situation but if the families want to get everything settled, do not threaten private prosecution.
'Yes, Madam, I am drunk, but in the morning I shall be sober and you will still be ugly.' Sir Winston Churchill.

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Re: Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

#416 Post by Boac » Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:38 pm

I know, but there is the question of a feeling of 'justice', is there not? I think the families were, at first, hoping for an inquest verdict!

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Re: Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

#417 Post by Ex-Ascot » Thu Jul 25, 2019 4:29 pm

Boac wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:38 pm
I know, but there is the question of a feeling of 'justice', is there not? I think the families were, at first, hoping for an inquest verdict!
My dear chap, let us face it, he is as guilty as a puppy sitting next to a pile of poo. But what is the best way forward for all stake holders? I do not know.
'Yes, Madam, I am drunk, but in the morning I shall be sober and you will still be ugly.' Sir Winston Churchill.

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Re: Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

#418 Post by Boac » Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:37 am

An inquest would be a good first step?

I note your real views:
he was found not guilty
- correct
he is as guilty as a puppy sitting next to a pile of poo
- correct

It is beginning to look as if 'Cognative Impairment' will be the great 'get out of jail' card for the 21st Century. Every cock-up, error, misjudgement, even reckless actions one makes can be dismissed as CI and, it would appear, not be challenged by anyone.

Wish I'd known that earlier....................

"Sorry, Constable, I was suffering from CI when I decided to drive home from the pub pissed."

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Re: Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

#419 Post by Pontius Navigator » Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:17 am

Away from the crash, I would be surprised if we have not all experienced CI at some time.

Using my take on CI, here are a couple of my examples.

Regular 90 minute/60 mile commute. Long straight road (below Scampton) I would then drink my cup of tea from home 30 min previous. One day, very foggy, no idea where I was on that road until I came to the village. Arrived at work tea not drunk.

More recently, High Dyke, good vis but no specific features. 'Woke up' and wondered exactly where I was. Only when I got to the sharp bend and rail bridge did I get a mental fix.

Basically, driving on automatic I am not actually taking an active role in the proceedings.

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Re: Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

#420 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:31 pm

This is common on regular trips, shows you have the route down pat, but dangerous if anything out of the ordinary happens. Whilst this is highly unlikely to happen in rural Lincolnshire (I think the last time was 1782 ;))) ), the brain on 'automatic' tends to ignore what doesn't fit its usual routine.
The tricks I use for avoiding it is to pick features along the route to take note of each time, that can change. What colour is the first item on that house on the corner's washing line? rather than Is there washing out?
One feature every couple of minutes means you stay 'conscious'.
Absent of features, do some mental route calculation like fuel remaining at destination or ETA or suchlike every 3 minutes or so.

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