Ops-Normal.org

says flap down at the start.

As regards tiredness my father was always very critical of his colleagues who might spend the day doing a Tiger Club or similar show and then roll up for a night flight totally exhausted. Might be forty years ago now but tiredness is still tiredness.

As for flaps I seem to recall their use was covered in the AAIB report – somewhere in the depths of its 450 pages but I can’t remember where.
Good video links C16 & BOAC

I wonder if the CAA display authorisation process has been discussed at all. Others have already commented on recency and experience. Seems a weird process on very much an old boys network; potentially riddled with errors when IIRC you can have a DA for one aircraft based on a display given in another type. I seem to recall that I’ve seen discussed somewhere that the speeds flown were far more akin to those used in the JP rather than the Hunter. I believe AH displayed both.

Digressing, on fatigue, on one type the rule was no more than 3x10+ in 5 days. One week we were rostered 5x9+ and the bosses were happy that we were legal!

See the defence have brought in an expert witness to say he was effected by the G. The prosecution have also brought in an expert witness who said that it would be no more than a fairground ride.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-sussex-47337835

I hope the jury recognise that what is thought to be the error - continuing the manoeuvre with insufficient height or speed at the top of the loop - would have occurred at a time of almost 0 'g'. Any possible effect of a 'high g' would have been in the last quarter of the manoeuvre by which time it is reckoned the die was well and truly cast.

If the 'claim' by the defence is that he partially 'blacked out' that would have to have to have been in the pull-up, and then why continue the manoeuvre?

Or at the end which accounts for the amnesia?

PN - the point being that 'blacking out' there would be unfortunate but irrelevant to the accident, and there is visual evidence of conscious control input all the way to impact anyway.

I understand that according to his evidence the amnesia 'appears' to have started at Duxford!

I stopped going to airshows years ago, in fact after the Mustang trainer crash at Hahn when the cockpit cover came unlatched and decapitated the pilot, Haydon-Baillie (sp ?) and killed his young lady passenger - but watching the videos of the final loop of the Hunter it looks more like it was flying a square with rounded corners than a smooth curve. Am I correct or was this an optical effect ?

No, definitely not a 'square' loop.

I remember Ormond's accident - I thought it was Mainz, not Hahn?

BOAC, I was not being entirely serious. It seems to many to be perfectly clear what happened. As far as the legal eagles it is a case finding mitigation and explanation.

I was not being entirely serious

- had me fooled...........

Mainz-Finthen I believe... Not Hahn.

Seems as if the prosecution have given their closing speech.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... -best.html

Dreadful picture of Hill in that DM article

I cannot imagine anyone looking too good in his position.

Boac wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:03 pm

I cannot imagine anyone looking too good in his position.

I sincerely believe the poor bloke remembers little or nothing of the accident. I can't see what good will ultimately come of this prosecution whatever the verdict. I imagine given the litigious, mercenary and vindictive nature of the world we live, John Derry would have been prosecuted in the current climate, if the poor man was alive to have his accident today.

Enough damage has already been done, at every level by this accident. Finding one scapegoat when so many others, including the CAA, are culpable as well, seems to be the name of the game here.

Caco

Cacophonix wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:23 pm

I imagine given the litigious, mercenary and vindictive nature of the world we live in, John Derry would have been prosecuted in the current climate, if the poor man was alive to have his accident today.
Caco

The cause of the break-up was later determined to be structural failure due to a design flaw in the wing's leading edge.

G-CPTN wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:26 pm

Cacophonix wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:23 pm

I imagine given the litigious, mercenary and vindictive nature of the world we live, in John Derry would have been prosecuted in the current climate, if the poor man was alive to have his accident today.

Caco

The cause of the break-up was later determined to be structural failure due to a design flaw in the wing's leading edge.

I know that but there was evidence that Derry was aware that the aircraft was behaving like an ornithopter on previous flights and certainly should have known that structural limits were being reached. One can imagine the legal arguments today.

Caco

If the jury believe that the pilot had previously practiced carrying out a "low loop" and that this manoeuvre was planned but went wrong then it must be likely they will arrive at guilty verdict, the final defence statement will be pretty crucial in this respect.

Whether the pilot remembers or not is completely immaterial, if the fact is that he intentionally operated the aircraft outside the rules, and had previously practiced this, resulting in the death of eleven people then a substantial custodial sentence is inevitable. The next of kin of those people that died will expect nothing less.

If the jury believe that the pilot had previously practiced carrying out a "low loop" and that this manoeuvre was planned but went wrong then it must be likely they will arrive at guilty verdict, the final defence statement will be pretty crucial in this respect.

I agree with this point. If he is found guilty on this point then one has to ask where the CAA oversight was if this chap was allowed to continue with a display authorisation if there was evidence of negligence or wanton disregard for the existing regs in the recent past. If the CAA claim they weren't aware of this then it either implies they weren't doing their job or raises doubts as to how a court can find him guilty and impute some motive to his performance when it wasn't even apparent to those who have oversight of these things. As for the pilot, it will be very difficult to determine mens rea from a court hearing when he is most likely to be suffering from trauma induced memory loss, so yes his current mental state is germane to the arguments in court..

As for the jury look what happened in the Glen Stewart case! A lot of the aviation related points will bypass the transoms of some of these folks I suspect.

Caco