BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

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Do you think the UK leaving the European Union would be a good thing?

Poll ended at Sat Jun 18, 2016 8:51 pm

Yes
36
72%
No
14
28%
 
Total votes: 50

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Re: BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

#2461 Post by compo » Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:20 pm

Of course! That explains all. Brexit is a plot to increase the French GDP by forcing les Rosbifs to drink eau des Alpes. :YMAPPLAUSE:

The local Francophobes will be delighted.

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Re: BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

#2462 Post by llondel » Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:34 am

I fail to see why the UK can't continue to buy stuff post-Brexit. What comes in is entirely under the control of the UK government (ignoring the Irish border for now) and there is no need to suddenly introduce punitive tariffs (although I suspect they are, by mirroring the high EU ones with the WTO) or extra standards for incoming products to meet. Of course, there's always the possibility that the EU will put pressure on companies not to sell to the UK, but hopefully they will resist that unless suitably compensated (finding an alternative market is always an option).

It is entirely possible that some stuff will get cheaper if the UK can buy it without having to pay EU import tariffs, but again see the comment about using an identical tariff schedule.

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Re: BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

#2463 Post by Krystal n Chips » Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:06 am

A very apt analogy .....both Treeza, and the remnants of her dysfunctional party have long been past their "best before " and " sell by " dates.....

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... it-cartoon

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Re: BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

#2464 Post by Capetonian » Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:54 am

Reading stuff like this makes me proud to have voted LEAVE, in spite of the utter mess that the (so-called) government has made of the process.
Remind me: what’s so great about the single market and the single currency again? The latest economic statistics from the eurozone are appalling, and point to a continent that is sleepwalking into a catastrophic recession. Our own establishment is too busy self-flagellating to have noticed, even though a eurozone meltdown would not only hurt British businesses and workers but could transform the Brexit negotiations.

Like the eurozone crisis which destroyed Greece and crippled Cyprus and Italy, this sudden economic storm could change everything. That earlier episode, a near-death experience for the euro, was a seminal moment in the rise of British Euroscepticism. It mattered almost as much as the migration crisis, a point that few Remainers understand because they cannot accept that Brexiteers care about economics, not just sovereignty.

To Eurosceptics, the quasi-bankruptcy of the Club Med economies in the mid-2010s was the final confirmation that the EU was no longer a land of milk and honey, as it had appeared to be in the 1970s and early 1980s, but an economic basket case with terrifyingly authoritarian tendencies. The French Trentes Glorieuses, the Wirtschaftswunder in Germany and the Auf Wiedersehn, Pet phenomenon – when British workers moved to Europe for employment: all belong to a distant past.

The issue isn’t so much British strength as European weakness: Brexit voters know that there is much that is wrong with the UK economy but they rightly no longer believe that the EU has any of the answers. Their critique is rational and forward-looking: it is the Remainers who are emotional and obsessed with past dreams, and who still see sunshine, prosperity and peace when they look over the Channel, rather than gilets jaunes and criminal levels of youth unemployment.

Between 1999, when the euro was launched, and the start of 2017, the latest period for which IMF data is available from Bloomberg, the eurozone’s GDP grew by 26 per cent, against the UK’s 44 per cent and 42 per cent in the United States. Italy is up by just 6.7 per cent and Greece by 1.3 per cent; both have suffered two wasted decades.

If being part of the single market and customs union mattered so much more than any other policy, the eurozone would have boomed. Yet it didn’t, and the voters know they have been sold a pup. If you want to see proper growth, you need to turn to the emerging world, to China (which has multiplied the size of its economy in extraordinary fashion), to India, to Singapore, to Israel (up 98 per cent).

Of course, the UK has underperformed these past two years; and yes, Brexit uncertainty, compounded by the Government’s incompetence, was one important reason. Yet this brief period of EU overperformance is ending. Eurozone industrial production was down a calamitous 4.2 per cent, year‑on-year in December, led by a 6.7 per cent collapse in Spain, 5.5 per cent in Italy and 3.9 per cent in Germany. French industry’s crisis was less pronounced at minus 1.7 per cent; Britain did slightly better again, by shrinking only 1.2 per cent.

How is any of this possible given that leaving the EU, we are told, is the only explanation for any and all bad economic news? I’m being facetious, of course: China’s downturn, dearer money in the eurozone and America, a general turning of the cycle after years of expansion, as well as some jitters about Brexit, all help explain the looming euro-recession. Yet listening to Remain propaganda, the EU ought to have discovered the secret to perpetual growth by now.

The reality is, it is still the weakest link in the developed world, a precarious, unsustainable, stagnant construct, its cultural and geopolitical power drained by its inability to grow its economy. No wonder Brexiteers just don’t accept leaving will make us permanently worse off. The two big economic experiments that underpin European integration have failed spectacularly.

The creation of the single market and its unified regulatory zone has delivered pathetically small results. A decade ago, the EU Commission calculated that it had only increased Europe’s economy by 2.1 per cent, a trivial number. It is likely that the UK will have gained even less: we don’t rely as much on EU markets, we specialise in services (where the single market is less complete), and we already had a more pro-competition environment.

The euro’s failure is even more disastrous. The huge boost to growth it was meant to generate by eliminating transaction costs and uncertainty never materialised. There was no free lunch, no spurt, no permanent upward shift in performance. The downsides have been cataclysmic – mad booms and busts in peripheral economies and the incompatibility between national social democracy and European fiscal policy exposed for all to see.

One thing is certain: another eurozone crisis would strengthen the Brexiteers’ resolve, even if Britain is also affected. As a tangible EU failure, it would more than cancel out the warnings of Project Fear. It would make Eurosceptics even more sanguine about a no-deal departure.

The inevitable short-term costs of leaving the EU would be attributed – in some cases unfairly – to the eurozone crisis. If French and German factories are shutting, then why blame Brexit for what is happening to Nissan or Airbus? All of this would also make it harder for the likes of Emmanuel Macron to play hardball: it is one thing to deliberately hurt one’s own economy in order to impose a punishment beating on Britain when that economy is growing; it’s another thing to do so when unemployment is beginning to rise.

Time is actually on our side, for once, assuming that the eurozone doesn’t suddenly bounce back. If we had a competent government, these are the sorts of discussions it would be having. The Treasury would be trying to mitigate the contagion from a eurozone recession; and No 10 would be seeking to strengthen its hand. Instead, there is nothing: no plan, no strategy, no reaction. But at some point, and soon, the British public will notice what is happening to the eurozone, and it will remember why it voted Leave.

Woe betide the Tories if they betray Brexit under such circumstances.
One thing you can say for the French, when civilization falls they have less far to fall than everyone else.

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Re: BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

#2465 Post by OFSO » Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:11 am

The Canary Islands, which already do not apply the 7% CIT (forced on them by the European Commission) to non-EU citizens visiting as tourists, are proposing to include the British in this category after Brexit, making holidays there cheaper for UK citizens. Of course the real question is why the EC forced them to tax only EU citizens in the first place.

No doubt somebody here will get up on his hind legs and blather on about solidarity or spreading wealth or penalising the capitalist dogs rich enough to go 'abroad' for their holidays or some such fatuous nonsense.

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Re: BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

#2466 Post by Krystal n Chips » Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:37 am

OFSO wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:11 am
The Canary Islands, which already do not apply the 7% CIT (forced on them by the European Commission) to non-EU citizens visiting as tourists, are proposing to include the British in this category after Brexit, making holidays there cheaper for UK citizens. Of course the real question is why the EC forced them to tax only EU citizens in the first place.

No doubt somebody here will get up on his hind legs and blather on about solidarity or spreading wealth or penalising the capitalist dogs rich enough to go 'abroad' for their holidays or some such fatuous nonsense.
Our dog gets up on her hind legs very frequently, bless her, this being a genetic disposition as she's a cockerpoo. As she's currently asleep, I don't wish to disturb her by asking what she thinks of the Canaries decision not to impose a tax which would be significantly detrimental to their principal source of income...tourism .

The UK's a bit different however...we simply screw / profiteer from locals and visitors alike when it comes to tourism and tourist attractions.

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Re: BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

#2467 Post by OFSO » Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:27 am

No different from France. I'm working there for two days. Still have to pay the tourist tax.

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Re: BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

#2468 Post by OFSO » Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:47 pm

So La May lost another vote which was supposed to be 'important' beforehand but 'not really important' after she lost it (Conservative Party spokesman.) And she wasn't even present to hear herself denounced by Corbyn as 'staggering on towards March 29th with no plan in her head.' Conservative Party spokesman said the lost vote would 'weaken' her negotiating position when she next goes to Brussels. The f*ckwits in number ten haven't even realised yet that patience has run out in Brussels and there's nothing to negotiate about.

Just when I think we've reached the bottom of the slope of stupidity, a yet lower level is revealed for our leaders to fall into.

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Re: BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

#2469 Post by compo » Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:28 pm

A mhalairt ar fad. This is part of the charade.

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Re: BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

#2470 Post by compo » Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:01 am

To amplify ^^

The project

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Re: BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

#2471 Post by Krystal n Chips » Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:25 am

OFSO wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:47 pm
So La May lost another vote which was supposed to be 'important' beforehand but 'not really important' after she lost it (Conservative Party spokesman.) And she wasn't even present to hear herself denounced by Corbyn as 'staggering on towards March 29th with no plan in her head.' Conservative Party spokesman said the lost vote would 'weaken' her negotiating position when she next goes to Brussels. The f*ckwits in number ten haven't even realised yet that patience has run out in Brussels and there's nothing to negotiate about.

Just when I think we've reached the bottom of the slope of stupidity, a yet lower level is revealed for our leaders to fall into.
You may find this article to be somewhat pertinent to your post.

For those unable to understand the concept, it contains satire......so will probably lead to confusion in their minds and be ignored...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ertifiable

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Re: BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

#2472 Post by Capetonian » Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:33 am

Britain's economy grew faster than Germany’s and Italy’s in the final quarter of last year, in a striking reversal which highlighted the increasing weakness at the heart of the eurozone.

Germany escaped recession “by the skin of its teeth” at the end of last year, official figures confirmed on Thursday, with zero growth after a contraction of 0.2pc the previous quarter.

Italy contracted by 0.1pc, tipping it into its third recession this decade. The eurozone as a whole grew by 0.2pc, the same as the UK, figures from Eurostat showed.

It meant Britain grew third fastest among the big five EU economies, behind Spain at 0.7pc and France at 0.3pc.

The UK’s relative performance was even stronger when comparing the fourth quarter of 2018 with the final three months of 2017.

On that measure, it was the fastest growing major economy in Europe. Britain grew by 1.3pc year on year, versus 1.2pc for the eurozone, 0.9pc for France, 0.6pc for Germany and 0.1pc for Italy.

On Thursday night Christine Lagarde, head of the International Monetary Fund, warned that stagnation in the southern eurozone nations threatens to undermine faith in the European project as prosperity is failing to spread across from the richer north and west of the continent.
One thing you can say for the French, when civilization falls they have less far to fall than everyone else.

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Re: BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

#2473 Post by Krystal n Chips » Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:21 am

Capetonian wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:33 am
Britain's economy grew faster than Germany’s and Italy’s in the final quarter of last year, in a striking reversal which highlighted the increasing weakness at the heart of the eurozone.

Germany escaped recession “by the skin of its teeth” at the end of last year, official figures confirmed on Thursday, with zero growth after a contraction of 0.2pc the previous quarter.

Italy contracted by 0.1pc, tipping it into its third recession this decade. The eurozone as a whole grew by 0.2pc, the same as the UK, figures from Eurostat showed.

It meant Britain grew third fastest among the big five EU economies, behind Spain at 0.7pc and France at 0.3pc.

The UK’s relative performance was even stronger when comparing the fourth quarter of 2018 with the final three months of 2017.

On that measure, it was the fastest growing major economy in Europe. Britain grew by 1.3pc year on year, versus 1.2pc for the eurozone, 0.9pc for France, 0.6pc for Germany and 0.1pc for Italy.

On Thursday night Christine Lagarde, head of the International Monetary Fund, warned that stagnation in the southern eurozone nations threatens to undermine faith in the European project as prosperity is failing to spread across from the richer north and west of the continent.
How about....one year or so, probably less, and you come back with the UK's performance après the end of March....in the interim, is it beyond your IT capabilities to include the source of such jingoistic quotes using something called a link ?

Us dullards / simpletons / thicko's, such as moi for example, sort of like to know from whence these emanate in case there may, just may, be summat called conscious bias involved....

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Re: BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

#2474 Post by Undried Plum » Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:35 pm

The UK economy will go down a bit after Brexit for a couple of reasons.

The first is that the EUrocrats will make bloody sure that we are punished for breaking free from the SuperState.

The second is that the German economy will slump into recession if there is any diminution of their exports to us. That will mean they have less money to spend on imports from us.

Let's go! Our huddled masses are yearning to breathe free.

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Re: BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

#2475 Post by izod tester » Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:57 pm

" .....summat called conscious bias involved...." You mean like links to articles from the Guardian perhaps?

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Re: BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

#2476 Post by Krystal n Chips » Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:11 pm

izod tester wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:57 pm
" .....summat called conscious bias involved...." You mean like links to articles from the Guardian perhaps?
Not quite...the Guardian doesn't resort to jingoism and, if your ever read the articles, there's usually something called pragmatism included...

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Re: BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

#2477 Post by FD2 » Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:49 am

Sad business for those concerned, but it seems it's all the fault of Brexit:

https://www.scotsman.com/news/transport ... -1-4874347

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Re: BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

#2478 Post by llondel » Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:37 am

...the latter arising from the EU’s recent decision to exclude UK airlines from full participation in the Emissions Trading Scheme.
Interesting bit there. Why were they excluded? I can see that if the UK had sought an opt-out for some reason then it makes sense, but if it's because of Brexit then surely that shouldn't take effect until the end of March. Too many things are being conveniently blamed on Brexit when, on closer examination, it's just a convenient excuse and avoids the real culprits carrying the can. I guess we can expect anything bad that happens in the next five years to be solely due to Brexit and absolutely nothing to do with mistakes and errors of judgement or other world events.

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Re: BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

#2479 Post by Krystal n Chips » Sun Feb 17, 2019 7:18 am

Many of you will approve of Gav, Private Pike to others, because he's just the sort of gung ho Defence Secretary the nation needs....so plenty of medals and parades to be had if he got his way and dispatched UK forces hither and thither across the globe to project our "lethality "......damned good chap Gav !....ignoring the fact the bulk of the population wouldn't share his enthusiasm of course.

Which leads to trade deals, or rather the paucity of such.....this won't cause any hardship as we know, at least in the minds of those convinced the Empire over which the sun never sets, is about to emerge again. Here's Pike kindly helping to ensure the UK remains firmly below the glideslope, off track. and below fuel minimums on a Cat 3 approach......

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... tive-anger

Some more inconvenient, and therefore will be simply ignored, facts about trade deals....

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... als-brexit

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