Runway 'incidents'

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Boac
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Runway 'incidents'

#1 Post by Boac » Sun Jan 13, 2019 3:14 pm

I see an apparently increasing number of events involving either running off the side or the end of runways. Wot is going on (or off?)?

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Re: Runway 'incidents'

#2 Post by fin » Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:19 pm

SWAG (Seriously wild ass guess) would be continuing pressure on pilots to adhere to tight schedules, coupled with any lack of backup from management when pilots go around or divert, based on money.

Am I also correct that the PIC time for modern day airliner pilots is waaay down from the time when I first began flying (1955) and half the crew up front had half of their flying experience over Germany?
Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment.

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Re: Runway 'incidents'

#3 Post by Slasher » Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:47 am

Comes down to training. Always has been. The better the training the less likely occurrence of incidents and prangs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24m-V2f9-sY

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Re: Runway 'incidents'

#4 Post by Boac » Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:04 am

I don't believe 'training' is to blame, Slash. It is 'state of mind', and part of it, as fin said, is down to management. Unless there is complete lunacy in most flight decks now-a-days, how do we explain a crew continuing a landing with only half the required landing distance available and many knots too fast, or diving headlong towards the sea in good visibility?

What amount of 'training' will eliminate these? You can beat your gums in the sim and on line and publish endless SOPs - all apparently to no avail.

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Re: Runway 'incidents'

#5 Post by Ex-Ascot » Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:09 am

In the Royal Air Force type conversion is done both in the simulator and also in the air. Most will not believe this but lesson one for the VC10 on the actual aircraft was driving it around the airfield. :YMPARTY: I think we had 'L' plates on though.

Been off the runway once. I was F/O my boss was the Capt. We had to pick up our pax early morning from Lyneham. Forecast was for fog so sensible thing would have to positioned the night before but the boss had to give an after dinner speech. We did a split approach, I flew it, at 200' he said he had control and landed. It was patchy fog. We hit a fog bank half way down the runway and went off the end into the approach lights. The story is a bit longer than that but essentially that is what happened. Because of the profile of our pax we couldn't keep it out of the press but as it was foggy no one witnessed the accident. It was reported as a taxiing accident. Cost the passenger's mum one new prop and one new engine oh, and a few approach lights. There was an unpublished report in which I was commended for the accuracy of my approach. Don't know what it said about the boss's taxiing skills though. =))
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Re: Runway 'incidents'

#6 Post by Sisemen » Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:23 am

Cost the passenger's mum one new prop and one new engine oh, and a few approach lights

"You just wait 'till I tell my mum on you" =)) =))

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Re: Runway 'incidents'

#7 Post by Slasher » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:04 am

Boac wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:04 am
I don't believe 'training' is to blame, Slash. It is 'state of mind', and part of it, as fin said, is down to management. Unless there is complete lunacy in most flight decks now-a-days, how do we explain a crew continuing a landing with only half the required landing distance available and many knots too fast, or diving headlong towards the sea in good visibility?

What amount of 'training' will eliminate these? You can beat your gums in the sim and on line and publish endless SOPs - all apparently to no avail.
I agree it's ultimately down to management Boac. Management dictates the Training schedule and the dishout of dosh for the purpose. However training between airlines varies immensely as you well know. I've found those blokes trained properly were far more safer than those who haven't (e.g. Indonesia). But bung a fresh Indo into a very good professional and uncompromising training facility and he'd be as good as anyone else.

Landing perf calculations (esp for an unreasonably complicated proc like on Airbi) have been simplified by EFB's - enter the data for whatever normal or abnormal configuration - and you get your expected landing roll plus your 1.67 or 1.91 dists and published LDA. Grandma could do it in 10 secs flat.

But yes I fully agree with you that no one can train out total blatant fuckwittery...as this clip demonstrates:





Jesus H...if I was going into a cricket pitch like that I would've (simply of total unadulterated fear let alone training) calculated a MLW at Despatch for the runway and assumed WET, and NO bloody tailwind would be tolerated whatsoever!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24m-V2f9-sY

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Re: Runway 'incidents'

#8 Post by Ex-Ascot » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:47 am

Love the last bit 'In the Memory of the Captain'. Wot a w@nker.

Could never stand wipers, used only in extreme rain.
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Re: Runway 'incidents'

#9 Post by Slasher » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:40 pm

I loathe wipers too sah. They gave me the shits. Always have.

I notice the latest A320 level 6 sims reproduce the loud racket of the bloody wipers very well. Good to know if ever I feel like being a total prick! :ymdevil:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24m-V2f9-sY

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Re: Runway 'incidents'

#10 Post by Boac » Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:37 am

Another couple of runway 'excursions' - getting quite popular:

http://avherald.com/h?article=4c30abc4&opt=0

http://avherald.com/h?article=4c31631a&opt=0

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Re: Runway 'incidents'

#11 Post by Alisoncc » Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:06 pm

So much for the walk around and kick the tyres. Aircraft takes off with tail stand still attached.
Incident: National Express B463 at Sydney on Jan 22nd 2019, removal of tail stand recommended prior to departure
http://avherald.com/h?article=4c33dd8b
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Re: Runway 'incidents'

#12 Post by CharlieOneSix » Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:48 pm

Alisoncc wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:06 pm
So much for the walk around and kick the tyres. Aircraft takes off with tail stand still attached.
Incident: National Express B463 at Sydney on Jan 22nd 2019, removal of tail stand recommended prior to departure
http://avherald.com/h?article=4c33dd8b
Not just restricted to fixed wing. Many years ago, must be late 70’s, a British Airways Helicopters S61 took off with passengers from Penzance Heliport with the towing arm still attached to the tail wheel. Having had a radio call about it they did an embarrassing quick circuit and landed.

If I remember correctly, the helicopter was late for a scheduled flight to the Scillies and was still in the hangar with rectification work being finalised when the crew manned it to try and save time. It was towed out to the passenger loading pan and .....see para 1.

How nobody noticed it when they taxied for departure is amazing!
The helicopter pilots' mantra: If it hasn't gone wrong then it's just about to...

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Re: Runway 'incidents'

#13 Post by Boac » Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:51 am

I don't think this is down to the flight crew, Alison! Only possible blame would be if it was a checklist item to be confirmed with ground crew. I think ALL tail props come off after loading - so well after 'walk-round'.

I once had to ask for a fork-lift to 'steady' an Aztec as a heavy drill bit went in and forwards. Luckily I checked that was removed..... :))

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