SEAT BELTS ARE FREE TO USE.

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SEAT BELTS ARE FREE TO USE.

#1 Post by barkingmad » Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:02 am

Herewego again.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/canada/ai ... -1.4504104

As part of my pre-departure ramblings I always advised my pax to keep their seatbelts at least loosely fastened in case of turbulence or having to avoid another aircraft. I didn't want to arrive with an "untidy" cabin as "I'd have to answer to my boss".

The lawyers amongst us will clarify whether if such advice was given then do the headbangers in the manifest have any right to sue the airline for damages.

Meantime it will happen again soon somewhere else to someone else.

As reluctant and scared SLF I keep mine loosely secure,even outside the blanket, as advised during all flights if not moving to/from the khazi.

I wonder what the securing rate would be if the inevitable Utube videos of chaos were included in the current crop of "safety" videos in the industry.

I accept that Darwin dictates there will always be those who ignore such advice but that's at their peril and unfortunately the danger of those still secured on whom they land during the short exercise in weightlessness! [-X

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Re: SEAT BELTS ARE FREE TO USE.

#2 Post by Ex-Ascot » Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:37 am

Cabin crew are vulnerable in this situation as is anyone going to the toilets or leaning on the bar in the 380. Seated ALWAYS keep seat belt at least loosely fastened. It is so stupid not to.
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Re: SEAT BELTS ARE FREE TO USE.

#3 Post by barkingmad » Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:44 am

A seat belt on a bar stool?

Now that would have been useful on the ground on occasions!!

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Re: SEAT BELTS ARE FREE TO USE.

#4 Post by Slasher » Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:58 am

What I've been told by an aviation lawyer (and all round happy drunk) was the following:

1. Seat belt sign on
2. Cabin crew or PIC to initiate aural or visual (IFE) announcement to pax to secure seat belts
3. Standing pax to be aurally addressed to sit and fasten belts.

If any twit ignores the bells and whistles and gets injured, there is no legal redress to the airline and/or onboard crew.

Also, no crew member is permitted to leave their seats to address errant pax during severe or extreme turbulence.

There was a SLF nut who on a 777 service with my last outfit left his belt off not caring a sh!t. Everyone else was belted in. The nut's head hit the roof in a nasty jolt but only bruised his head. Said nut tried to sue the airline "for not ensuring he was belted in". Beak threw it out of court in 5 minutes.

Might add with KAL, if a local is injured or killed due to turb and the SB sign is off, the PIC will be up on a manslaughter charge and sentenced to a mandatory minimum of 5 years.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24m-V2f9-sY

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Re: SEAT BELTS ARE FREE TO USE.

#5 Post by barkingmad » Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:07 am

Not all CAT nor evasive manoeuvres are predictable so the sestbelt signs are not at issue here?

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Re: SEAT BELTS ARE FREE TO USE.

#6 Post by Slasher » Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:16 am

Seatbelt signs must be on when at FLs within both known and forecast areas of sev CAT with my last outfit. Not required when mod CAT was forecast.

Meant flying sometimes with the sign on for an hour with barely a ripple. So be it. In this litigation-crazy world it's better to tinplate one's arse.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24m-V2f9-sY

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Re: SEAT BELTS ARE FREE TO USE.

#7 Post by Pontius Navigator » Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:53 am

On a recent flight, window seats slightly behind centre aisle seats, the female carer was in the window row, her charge was on the centre aisle seat. As soon as we were established in the climb, 500 feet or so, she invested and went to assist him. She was waved back. 2,000 feet and she tried again. And again, and again.

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Re: SEAT BELTS ARE FREE TO USE.

#8 Post by Pontius Navigator » Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:56 am

Slasher wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:16 am
Seatbelt signs must be on when at FLs within both known and forecast areas of sev CAT with my last outfit. Not required when mod CAT was forecast.

Meant flying sometimes with the sign on for an hour with barely a ripple. So be it. In this litigation-crazy world it's better to tinplate one's arse.
It does raise the question of toilet needs.

I think, in the film Absolutely Fabulous, Joanna Lumley is heading for the toilet. She is told she must wait and can't go "I've already started" she said!

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Re: SEAT BELTS ARE FREE TO USE.

#9 Post by Boac » Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:12 pm

"A seat belt on a bar stool?" - I have had moments in my life when I could have used them on the loo............... and I'm not talking about in an aircraft =))

As Barking has said - this AC 'event' appears to have NOTHING to do with seat belt signs on/off.

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Re: SEAT BELTS ARE FREE TO USE.

#10 Post by Slasher » Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:45 am

Pontius Navigator wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:56 am
It does raise the question of toilet needs.
If a pax goes to the thunderbox after crew warnings that's solely at their own risk. An airline isn't an Air Force so one can't bark out an order to a pax to sit there and crap his pants.

To date I haven't heard of a case where a pax was injured or killed bouncing off the walls and roof in the dunny room in sev turb.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24m-V2f9-sY

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Re: SEAT BELTS ARE FREE TO USE.

#11 Post by llondel » Sat Jul 13, 2019 3:50 am

I've sat in the small room when the seatbelt sign came on before now. Clearly one has to finish the job and get back to one's seat safely.

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Re: SEAT BELTS ARE FREE TO USE.

#12 Post by Ex-Ascot » Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:20 am

We had a case of the Captain himself chucking up in the small room on landing. Where is that covered in SOPs?
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Re: SEAT BELTS ARE FREE TO USE.

#13 Post by barkingmad » Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:38 am

Thanks boac for bringing the topic back to the event in question.
We have to presume that most of these inflight injury incidents are due to UNFORSEEN UNFORECASTED CAT or TCAS manoeuvres performed harshly in the heat of the moment.
There will always be CC unsecured in the proper conduct of their duties and always pax enroute to/from the khazi in addition to the pax easing cramped limbs or fractious noisy rugrats charging down the aisles. That's an accepted risk.
My OP was considering the vast majority who are seated but insecure by their own choice but who subsequently leap aboard the litigation bandwagon in the hope of some free/cheap compensation.
Further question, m'lud: How many alert aware flight deck crew are monitoring the TAT guage for relatively rapid fluctuations which warn of potential CAT which may have escaped the forecasters' beady eyes? That seemed to be a dying art in my last days in seat 0A.

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Re: SEAT BELTS ARE FREE TO USE.

#14 Post by Slasher » Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:51 am

Me. Crossing the Pacific where we'd encounter sudden sev CAT. Once it jumped down 10C then up again in the space of a second. I said "hang on fellas!" A thoroughly decent clobbering ensued a few seconds later.

Brand new local capts would ask why I put on the Belt sign myself just out of the blue without saying anything. Then crash thump bang! "Er...that's why captain sir".

They thought I was a seer or something! :))
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24m-V2f9-sY

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Re: SEAT BELTS ARE FREE TO USE.

#15 Post by barkingmad » Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:45 am

TAT watching seems to be something taught by grumpy old men who've spent a few sunrises trying to stay awake after a few years in the various seats.
I don't recall it being written in SOPs by any of the training population, maybe 'cos they operate on the "Not Invented Here" principle which forbids TRTOs from adopting practices which are suggested by ordinary line dogs.
Judging from the numbers of requests by new F/Os posting in T O P, there seems to be a shortage of good commonsense advice from the 'e' generation of TRIs & LTCs.
Commonsense advice is translated from the old word "airmanship", long since deleted from the current aviation vocabulary.
End of rant and time to carry out a risk assessment of the dangers in preparing porridge and coffee, both hot fluids involving multiple hazards. ~X(

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Re: SEAT BELTS ARE FREE TO USE.

#16 Post by Boac » Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:01 am

'TAT watching' - indeed - like preaching cannibalism to most F/Os - "What? Never 'eard of it"

"time to carry out a risk assessment of the dangers in preparing porridge and coffee, both hot fluids involving multiple hazards. "- I trust you will publish your findings here for us all..............?

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Re: SEAT BELTS ARE FREE TO USE.

#17 Post by Stoneboat » Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:35 pm

On another board I idly wondered when someone would be along to blame the incident on climate change. Well, it didn't take long.

Frequency of severe air turbulence could triple due to climate change.

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Re: SEAT BELTS ARE FREE TO USE.

#18 Post by Boac » Sat Jul 13, 2019 2:07 pm

....and from my somewhat 'old' experience too, that is correct. I certainly watched a slow increase in both high-level wind speeds and turbulence. It is logical. Warmer world, more moisture content/more instability.

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Re: SEAT BELTS ARE FREE TO USE.

#19 Post by Slasher » Sun Jul 14, 2019 5:18 am

Ex-Ascot wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:20 am
We had a case of the Captain himself chucking up in the small room on landing. Where is that covered in SOPs?
My nickname emerged after I badly needed a piss on final R02R SIN. Got back just in time to call "minimum" as I began belting meself back in. I'd been taking a whiz every hour since Narita for some reason and guzzling water like nobody's business from an hour before pickup time. This was during my SQ days.

Captain remarked later I was quite the slasher. Might've been Ron Whytock (Seth Effrikan) or ExSp33d. I know it was one of the good blokes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24m-V2f9-sY

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Re: SEAT BELTS ARE FREE TO USE.

#20 Post by Pontius Navigator » Sun Jul 14, 2019 10:57 am

If being caught short:

In the Nimrod the Khazi was behind the flight deck but ahead of the tactical area. On one trip with the trappers on board, one rear crew trapped was caught short and repaired to the little room. After business done he could not open the door. Happily, for the crew, he had not taken his headset with him so was unable to call for help😇

Lesson learnt, keep your headset with you. Also stops someone shorting the plug with a graphite pencil.

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