Upon Saint Crispin's Day
Upon Saint Crispin's Day
[bbvideo=560,315]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDZVxbrW7Ow[/bbvideo]
Re: Upon Saint Crispin's Day
I must apologise for posting this in jb, I was unaware that admin had set up an area specific to this day, an area which will be of great use to the community for 0.274 per cent of the year.
I look forward to using similar areas, and am even now preparing my post for St Swithin's Day.
I look forward to using similar areas, and am even now preparing my post for St Swithin's Day.
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Re: Upon Saint Crispin's Day
So tell me Henry, what makes you think you think you will still be able to contribute here by St Swithin's Day ? Based on your present sniping and other unsocial activities consider it highly unlikely.
Alison
PS. Within the context of "we few, we happy few, we band of brothers .... we who have sworn the oath, worn the uniform and occasionally stood in harm's way", I can well understand your lack of appreciation for today as a day of importance. The probability of you ever having served your country is I suspect absolutely NIL.
Alison
PS. Within the context of "we few, we happy few, we band of brothers .... we who have sworn the oath, worn the uniform and occasionally stood in harm's way", I can well understand your lack of appreciation for today as a day of importance. The probability of you ever having served your country is I suspect absolutely NIL.
Re: Upon Saint Crispin's Day
I am not able to comprehend the above post.
However, in my own defence, I must say that I was in the military to the extent of attending courses at RAF Halton and Henlow, I have flown from RAF Chivenor and Laarbruch, and much of my career has been in the design of military aircraft for the use of the RAF, the USAF, the British army and the Shah of Persia. I was also in the Territorial Army.
I have indeed never actually shot guns at Her Britannic Majesty's enemies, and I imagine I am not alone in that.
However, in my own defence, I must say that I was in the military to the extent of attending courses at RAF Halton and Henlow, I have flown from RAF Chivenor and Laarbruch, and much of my career has been in the design of military aircraft for the use of the RAF, the USAF, the British army and the Shah of Persia. I was also in the Territorial Army.
I have indeed never actually shot guns at Her Britannic Majesty's enemies, and I imagine I am not alone in that.
Re: Upon Saint Crispin's Day
Correction: Sorry, should have said tracked vehicles and missiles for the British army and the Shah of Persia. To preserve political balance I should add military aircraft for the Israelis.
For my nephew Robert: No I didn't ever design a complete airplane or missile system, nobody does, it's a team effort with a great many people involved.
For my nephew Robert: No I didn't ever design a complete airplane or missile system, nobody does, it's a team effort with a great many people involved.
Re: Upon Saint Crispin's Day
- come on, Alison, give us the dirt!other unsocial activities
Re: Upon Saint Crispin's Day
It can be quite cathartic, Henry, to tell us yourself?
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Re: Upon Saint Crispin's Day
Agincourt was the last time the French raised the Oriflamme, a red flag indicating no prisoners would be taken.
It was also raised against the English at Crecy and Poitiers
Possibly therefore the least successful flag in History
Afterwards the French typically raised a white flag, presumably to save time
It was also raised against the English at Crecy and Poitiers
Possibly therefore the least successful flag in History
Afterwards the French typically raised a white flag, presumably to save time
Re: Upon Saint Crispin's Day
Fox3WheresMyBanana wrote:Afterwards the French typically raised a white flag, presumably to save time
Love it.
Not that I have any problems with the French, but..... Has beating the French somehow become deeply embedded in the English psyche ? Almost an hereditary trait?
Alison
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Re: Upon Saint Crispin's Day
Nothing special about the English - the French will surrender to anybody - Germans, Vietnamese, Spanish, Germans, Russians....;
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Re: Upon Saint Crispin's Day
There was a story (probably apocryphal) doing the rounds a number of years ago amongst some Firearm collectors here in South Australia, that someone saw an advertisement in a shooters and collectors magazine that read;
For Sale; French Military Bolt Action Rifle. Never Fired, only dropped twice.
For Sale; French Military Bolt Action Rifle. Never Fired, only dropped twice.
You only live twice. Once when you're born. Once when you've looked death in the face.
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Re: Upon Saint Crispin's Day
Fox:
As a big fan of Shakespeare's Henry V I absolutely loved Brannagh's offering. The Olivier version was a wartime "propaganda" piece that softened much of the Shakespearean English to make it understandable and had Henry in bright, shining armour and "silken dalliance"... Brannagh was much more human about it and appears to have given no quarter with the actual language of the play.
But there is one thing that has always bothered me about Brannagh's version. At the end of the Battle of Agincourt immediately after they return to the baggage to find it sacked and prior to Montjoy arriving to ask permission to search the field for the wounded and dead Henry orders the French prisoners be put to death.
It is unfathomable to me why such a short passage that is, really, non-controversial under the circumstances * should have been omitted by Brannagh.
* This is, after all, a story rather than a history and contains sufficient factual errors to prove that fact.
Agincourt was the last time the French raised the Oriflamme, a red flag indicating no prisoners would be taken
As a big fan of Shakespeare's Henry V I absolutely loved Brannagh's offering. The Olivier version was a wartime "propaganda" piece that softened much of the Shakespearean English to make it understandable and had Henry in bright, shining armour and "silken dalliance"... Brannagh was much more human about it and appears to have given no quarter with the actual language of the play.
But there is one thing that has always bothered me about Brannagh's version. At the end of the Battle of Agincourt immediately after they return to the baggage to find it sacked and prior to Montjoy arriving to ask permission to search the field for the wounded and dead Henry orders the French prisoners be put to death.
Fluellen: Kill the poys and the luggage! 'Tis expressly against the law of arms. 'Tis as arrant a piece of knavery, mark you now, as can be offert, in your conscience now, is it not?
Gower: 'Tis certain there’s not a boy left alive, and the cowardly rascals that ran from the battle ha' done this slaughter. Besides, they have burned and carried away all that was in the king’s tent, wherefore the king, most worthily, hath caused every soldier to cut his prisoner’s throat. Oh, ’tis a gallant king!
It is unfathomable to me why such a short passage that is, really, non-controversial under the circumstances * should have been omitted by Brannagh.
* This is, after all, a story rather than a history and contains sufficient factual errors to prove that fact.
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Re: Upon Saint Crispin's Day
Yet the passage, coining the 'Band of Brothers' idea, resonates with patriots to the present day. They were noble (in all such battles, not just Henry 5's), all those who faced impossible odds, implacable foes, disinterested or even hostile publics, but they prevailed in honor, even if they didn't survive. In everyone's last dying gasp, honor is all you have. Endeavor to die with it.
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Re: Upon Saint Crispin's Day
Ben:
Well put. But never forget, those battles were not honourable and pretty things. By far the largest number of men were the "commoners", those of "low" birth. Many fought only as far as their courage took them. If the battle was going well they fought well, yet should it go badly they were easily deterred. Think Pistol, Bardolph and Nym.
Then there were the "solid" folk that would fight because they were there - for whatever reason. Think Bates and Williams on the night before Agincourt. They questioned the reason but those men would have gone forward despite the odds.
The middle leaders were utterly loyal and were, as SNCO's to this day, the backbone of the force - Gower, Fluellen, MacMorris and Jamie. They knew how to undermine a wall and they led the men even when they faltered...
Then come the lords, both low and high. Some, like Westmoreland, didn't fancy the battle, yet York begged for "the leading of the vaward"... The very "tip of the spear"...
Then there's Henry... He had no choice. He'd tried to remove his men from harm but failed. Now he was faced with annihilation...
Did I ever tell you how much I love this play? But, that is what it is, a play.
There were four speeches in the play that, should they have been appropriate to a situation today would have spurred any soldier/leader in the three categories above that heard them to be inspired to "greater things"...
The first is the Dauphin's insult... Here.
This is absolutely crucial to the entire play. It established Henry as no longer the "playboy" he was in Henry IV Part II. He becomes a man in his own right even though he is being manipulated by the church.
The second is at the gates of Harfleur... Everyone knows it... Here
Note carefully the very end... How Pistol, Bardolph and Nym acted and were corrected by Gower.
The third follows closely on the last where Henry "requests" surrender and is a much overlooked speech. A more frightening speech would be hard to imagine back then. Here.
And then there's St. Crispins... I won't even bother linking it because most know it by heart or can find it easily...
There are so many highlights to that play it's hard to list them..
But let's never forget the humor... Youtube, for some reason, has it in two parts...
Part 1
Part 2
After the "Here comes your Father" you can turn it off but I love that Henry was still worried about his future bride's father...
Did I ever mention I love this play?
Well put. But never forget, those battles were not honourable and pretty things. By far the largest number of men were the "commoners", those of "low" birth. Many fought only as far as their courage took them. If the battle was going well they fought well, yet should it go badly they were easily deterred. Think Pistol, Bardolph and Nym.
Then there were the "solid" folk that would fight because they were there - for whatever reason. Think Bates and Williams on the night before Agincourt. They questioned the reason but those men would have gone forward despite the odds.
The middle leaders were utterly loyal and were, as SNCO's to this day, the backbone of the force - Gower, Fluellen, MacMorris and Jamie. They knew how to undermine a wall and they led the men even when they faltered...
Then come the lords, both low and high. Some, like Westmoreland, didn't fancy the battle, yet York begged for "the leading of the vaward"... The very "tip of the spear"...
Then there's Henry... He had no choice. He'd tried to remove his men from harm but failed. Now he was faced with annihilation...
Did I ever tell you how much I love this play? But, that is what it is, a play.
There were four speeches in the play that, should they have been appropriate to a situation today would have spurred any soldier/leader in the three categories above that heard them to be inspired to "greater things"...
The first is the Dauphin's insult... Here.
This is absolutely crucial to the entire play. It established Henry as no longer the "playboy" he was in Henry IV Part II. He becomes a man in his own right even though he is being manipulated by the church.
The second is at the gates of Harfleur... Everyone knows it... Here
Note carefully the very end... How Pistol, Bardolph and Nym acted and were corrected by Gower.
The third follows closely on the last where Henry "requests" surrender and is a much overlooked speech. A more frightening speech would be hard to imagine back then. Here.
And then there's St. Crispins... I won't even bother linking it because most know it by heart or can find it easily...
There are so many highlights to that play it's hard to list them..
But let's never forget the humor... Youtube, for some reason, has it in two parts...
Part 1
Part 2
After the "Here comes your Father" you can turn it off but I love that Henry was still worried about his future bride's father...
Did I ever mention I love this play?
Reasons for being banned to date:-
1. Espousing extreme views
2. PITA, (love this one)...
1. Espousing extreme views
2. PITA, (love this one)...
Re: Upon Saint Crispin's Day
Anyone know when Henry actually went? Did he fall or was he pushed - we demand to know..
(Actually, I don't care.....)
(Actually, I don't care.....)
Re: Upon Saint Crispin's Day
AA and BenThere, thank you so much fo your contributions. So admirably reflect my own thoughts. The comradeship amongst those who fight together against a common enemy has to be experienced to fully appreciate.
Alison
Alison
Rev Mother Bene Gesserit.
Sent from my PDP11/05 running RSX-11D via an ASR33 (TTY)
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Re: Upon Saint Crispin's Day
The language, of course, is totally unrealistic.
I believe King Henry's actual words at the breach at Harfleur, according to a semi-contemporaneous account, were:
"Right Lads, at 'em"
which sounds a lot more likely to my ears.
I believe King Henry's actual words at the breach at Harfleur, according to a semi-contemporaneous account, were:
"Right Lads, at 'em"
which sounds a lot more likely to my ears.
Re: Upon Saint Crispin's Day
Anyone know when Henry actually went? Did he fall or was he pushed - we demand to know..
(Actually, I don't care.....)
Just realised there is a little scope for confusion......... I was referring to Henry Crun (following post #3 by Alison)
Re: Upon Saint Crispin's Day
Perhaps Henry (Crun that is) was minded to quote the bard's words from Othello as he plunged the dagger into his own heart...
Soft you, a word or two before you go.
I have done the state some service, and they know ’t.
No more of that. I pray you, in your letters,
When you shall these unlucky deeds relate,
Speak of me as I am. Nothing extenuate,
Nor set down aught in malice. Then must you speak
Of one that loved not wisely, but too well.
Of one not easily jealous, but being wrought,
Perplexed in the extreme. Of one whose hand,
Like the base Indian, threw a pearl away
Richer than all his tribe. Of one whose subdued eyes,
Albeit unused to the melting mood,
Drop tears as fast as the Arabian trees
Their medicinal gum. Set you down this,
Caco